Am I being stupid?

I'd love to see him try to tell CJ that she's not a mother.

Heh, me too.

Yes, the last statement has assholish quality, but sozobe's take on it helps me to see where it is coming from.

Another thought:



Unanimous, with one notable exception, it seems. I know that there have been parenting arguments with E.G. where I think he's being unreasonable, but he digs his heels in. When that happens, it is often in the context of him feeling like he is not being respected as an equal parent, that I expect to make all the decisions. Some difficult discussions about that -- if he works 80 hours a week, well, yeah, it's only practical that I make more parenting decisions than he does -- but usually after we've talked about the underlying stuff he comes around on whatever he was being unreasonable about.

Pretty much no matter what, the words Mr. B is saying are untenable. He's plain wrong. But there seems to be something behind them, and while it's not your job to find out -- it's his job to be self-aware enough to not be a dork about it, to figure out what he's really feeling instead of saying stupid untenable things -- it can perhaps help you figure out how to react to it.

I agree with Sozobe--the waters are mirky with Deep Symbolism.

I'd guess that there are parallels between Mo's horror when you wear a pony tail and Mr. B's conviction that you make a much better grandmother than a mother. Grandmothers can be relied upon--mothers can't.

Can adopted children pick up small insanities from the same-sex adopted parent? Mr. B and Mo are obviously bonding--their quirks are intertwining.

To my mind you deserve that "Mom" honorific--you've earned it. In some ways you're not only Mother-to-Mo, but Mother-to-Mr. B.

The conversation you quoted makes the Mother's Day omissions more understandable--not more palatable, more understandable.

As I understand it, when Mo and his Pa are discussing you they refer to you as "Abuela". What does Mo call you to your face? Can you accept "Abuela" as a pet name from your menfolks while "Mom" remains Mo's interaction name?

Mr. B. is not too old to spank.

Hold your dominion.

Of course adoptive mothers are true mothers. Of course you will be Mo's mother once the adoption goes through.

I agree with Soz and Noddy. There's a history here that Mr B is stuck on and it sounds like he's transferring his negative experience onto you and Mo.

Would he be receptive to hearing that thought and talking it through?

One more thought:

The incredulous "you don't get it?" stuff has been rattling around in my brain -- I think the subtext there might be not anything specific about Mo or Mr. B's relationship with his mom, but how your marriage has changed since you became parents. How you are less attuned to each other, more energy focused Mo-ward than spouse-ward. There's nothing wrong with this, it's the natural order of things, but it can be a jarring adjustment, especially (I think) for the husbands/ dads.

My thoughts exactly, Noddy. boomer, my sense is that you and Mr. B have issues with your "parent" identities. I guarantee you that Mo is not the least bit confused by the name thing. You are not Ozzie and Harriet and that's OK. You are a family and you and Mr. B are the parent figures. What name you go by is irrelavent, to Mo anyway.

Does Pa mean grandfather to Mr. B?
Does he think he is not Mo's father? That he isn't going to be Mo's father?

<Pa means father around here. Opa is grandfather, as Oma is grandmother. Pa is Father>

~~~~~

The 'couple' dynamics that Soz has mentioned probably have a lot to do with this. My Oma taught her daughters that husbands ALWAYS come first. Children were secondary to her way of thinking. She told me, and her other grand-daughters, the same thing whenever we spent time together.

What do Boomer and Mr. B think in that sense? Are you in the same place - both think partners first, kid secondary - both think kid first, partners second - or are you in different places with that.

~~~~~~

language differences
cultural differences
specific family teaching differences

~~~~~~~

A lot gets exposed when kids get added to a family mix.

~~~~~~~

Parenting is not for wimps.

Thank you all for your replies. While I can't say that I've calmed down much, I'm feeling a little more stable.

I think I've left a bad impression of Mr. B's mom who is someone I am very fond of and I admire her a great deal.

Considering that she was up against an ex-husband, an attorney, who though not wanting custody of his kids thought it was a fun trick to help them sue for emancipation from their mother (the two oldest kids anyway). Somehow he hadn't "won" unless he could make her disliked.

Mr. B did indeed live several of his late teen years with his Oma and it is through her that I learned to admire his mom. She was a debutante who had never worked a day in her life when Mr Bs dad walked out in favor of his secretary. She went out and got a job and supported herself and her kids with no help and a lot of interference.

I think she is really amazing.

Of course, she was not the glamour parent.

Good for her.

That said, I don't think Mr. B considers adoptive parents anything other than "real" parents so I don't know where his crap is coming from - it seems more directed at me than at the concept of adoption.

Maybe because it is all so open about his "real" mom and the fact that she will probably always be around.

I don't even begin to understand it.

I have suggested to him in the past that if "mom" won't work for him that he just refer to me by my first name. I would rather have Mo call me Name/mom than grandmother/mom. I think grandmother/mom is confusing in a very weird way.

What a jerk.

While i can see that the whole thing is pretty hurtful I think those who say that Mo is probably not confused himself are right

While I've always stuck to Mum + Dad, I've got a couple of friends who will talk to their friends and say Mum and Dad almost without fail, but will actually call their parents to their face Ma and Pa, Mutti and Vati or in Em's case Wend.

I know that's kinda the opposite way around as Mo is still calling you Mum... but i just mean I know a fair few people who have different names for parent-to-face and parent-to-friends and have never had a problem with it

Obviously there is an added dimension here in that the name Mo uses for you to Mr B means something. Would you be so concerned if he used another nickname that had no meaning. Would you be concerned if he called you boomer not mum?

Maybe we're both making a big deal out of things but I DO think words matter.

Mo knows what the word Abuela means. He knows a lot of spanish words.

Mo was the one who decided I was "mom" and I had a really terrible time with it when he did. It was hard. This was long before adoption even entered the picture -- back when his parents still insisted they were coming back for him.

I DO think it's creepy for a kid to call someone both mother and grandmother.

I have suggested my given name and a few nonsense words that Mo uses "crexil", "kabrella" "chinchy" for things he likes.

I would prefer "mom" but my heels aren't dug in against something else.

Honestly, if "I'm never going to be his mom" I really don't know if it's a good idea to pursue adoption.

I'm really confused.

Mr. B is the one who went full bore over the legal aspects of custody, angling towards adoption. We really really talked a lot about what we were getting into. We went down a very untraveled road to get to this point.

I don't know what is going on now.

I'm thinking marriage counseling or pre-adoption counseling or something is in order.

boomerang, of course you are Mo's Mommy. THis is not defined
by a biological bond only.

I'd be very hurt too by Mr. B's remarks and I also would
not accept to be called "Oma" (which is German for Grandmother) or "Abuela". You are his Mother and basta!

When little Jane first came to me, I quite didn't know how
she is going to address me, and I had asked the social worker what to do. She is a wise, older lady and told me, that little Jane is to address me as Mom in oder not to confuse her. Nonetheless, it wasn't an issue for us, as
Jane immediately called me Mommy (about a 1000 times a day) When we speak about her biological mother,
we say exactly as is: biological mother ! She knows that's the woman who gave birth to her.

I think Mo should know that he has two mothers, one biological one and an actual one who takes care of him.
I also think Mr. B should learn these terms, as they are
crucial when applying for the adoption and going through
the home study process.

Giving birth to a child doesn't make you automatically a parent. For the child's emotional development it is
necessary for him to call you Mommy. He needs to associate Mommy with love, care, comfort and well being, just like
all other children do.

Mr. B needs to learn that. Mo is not an extension of his
own life with Oma. You're not Mo's grandmother, you have
become his mother.

Counseling--aka Discussion with a Referee--sounds like a good idea. Of course, Mr. B. may have spent some time today thinking.

As for mother/grandmother. Mo isn't an anthropologist setting out with pre-conceived family roles. Mo's a kid with a complicated family and if you span two generations and two languages, so be it.

Years ago I owned an Irish Setter, Sasha, who accumulated several little neurotic habits living with our family. All dogs try to climb on the stuffed furniture. Sasha was the only dog I've known who used to climb up on a straight-backed kitchen chair to join the coffee klatch.

One of my neighbors was a very verbal three year old who had no dog of his own. Talking with his mother one day he announced, "Shana is a goggie and Julip is a goggie, but Sasha is a Sasha."

Mo indicated that he wanted you to be Mom--and if it makes Pa/Dad happy you can also be a Spanish grandmother. You are a refuge and a tower of strength and a mean old witch and a tutor of photography and a gardener and a swimmer....

Mo doesn't see you as a woman of labels and limits. He sees you as an infinite resource. You aren't a Goggie, you're you--for him to define.

This is the first time I disagree with you Noddy.
I think it is important for a child to have a Mommy,
regardless if this happens to be his biological mother or
his adoptive/foster mother. He needs to go to preschool,
kindergarten, school with confidence knowing he has
a Mommy too.

My daughter's classmate lost her (bio) mother 3 years
ago to cancer. The father has just recently remarried
and the girl is just glowing and telling everyone: "I have
a Mommy again".

Believe it or not, the word "Mom or Mommy" is very
important to children, probably more so for the little ones
who don't have one either through neglect, divorce or death.

boomer, please know I say this with love-you are making too much of this. You are a god send to Mo. You didn't give birth to him but so what? Mr. B is being a little (OK, a lot) insensitive, too.

Mo knows who his mommy is. If you ask him what does he say?

What WILL confuse him is of you and Mr. B continue to argue about what he calls you. Why don't you and the Mr go out for dinner, sans Little Mo, and talk this thing out? You both have carried some baggage into this parenthood thing, it seems to me.

I've thought to the point where my head is sore and all I can come up with is that perhaps he has changed his mind about adopting.

He has the right to change his mind.

By the same token, I have a right to change my mind - - about him.

I don't think that discussion can wait until we can arrange a "date night" so I intend to talk to him about it as soon as possible. Tonight? Tomorrow morning? Soon, anyway.

I have never been big on lables. I would settle for Crexil. This is so hard for me.

But I know, like CJane says that "mom" is important. It was really important to Mo when this whole issue started.

"Ask you mom......" said the playground kids.

Mo didn't know what to do.

"Mom! Mom! They'd shout.

Mo didn't have a "mom". He wanted to do what the other kids did - he wanted to shout "Mom! Look at me."

It was hard to watch.

So when he yelled it, I responded.

Mo does not see us argue - about this or anything else. Honestly, we don't argue in the typically sense of the word, anyway. We debate.

Maybe we need to argue.

I keep trying to find what it might be that makes me so nuts on this issue and all I can think of is my brother.

His mother died in childbirth.

My parents married when he was almost three years old.

When my mother's father died, her family listed me and my sisters as survivors but did not list my brother because, according to my mom's family "he wasn't her real son".

It broke my mother's heart and she didn't speak to her family for years.

<sigh>

Anyway, a contingent of Mo's "real" family is due here tomorrow. Mo's "real" mom called today about some B.S.

My hands feel too full.

I'm sorry, boomer. I know that feeling, when you need to be cared for rather than caring for everyone else.

Talking, as soon as possible, sounds good. Maybe bring up some of these ideas, see if he says "pshaw" or "hmmm." The ideas about who makes the parenting decisions, ehBeth's stuff about whether you both agree about who comes first, Mo or partner, and what it means if you disagree... etc., etc.

It sucks to be the mature one all the time. Vent away here of course, immaturity completely acceptable.

Actually, as I write that, it makes me think of something -- who says you're nuts on this issue? Who says you're anything but appropriately annoyed by a dumb thing he said?

It's not always your fault.

I didn't make myself clear. Boomer may well be one of those mothers with multiple titles....a Mom +

She and Mr. B. can debate the issue, but Mo has already made his choice about what he will call her.


Boomer--

Good luck tomorrow--and tonight.

Hold your dominion.

ditto