If Jesus is God, how is he called God's only begotten son?

The name Jehovah is not used at all in the Greek New Testament. It is a Hebrew word and only found there. Does that mean that Jehovah is not in the New Testament? Of course not.

When Jehovah says He stretched out the heavens by Himself alone, then there is no need to see another doing the work for Him.

Is 44:24 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: "I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?

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If Dubya's representative was referred to as Commander in Chief and Mr President, you would certainly say "Only the President Himself is referred to as that."

When Christ is referred to as Alpha and Omega, First and Last, Eternal Father, etc --- then we rightly say "Only God Himself is referred to as that."

And that is just what the Bible does, not only ascribing to Christ the same deeds as God Himself (as if He were God's secretary) , but also the same titles.

Titus 2:10 ........exhibiting good fidelity to the full, so that they may adorn the teaching of our Savior, God, in all things.

11 For the undeserved kindness of God which brings salvation to all sorts of men has been manifested,

12 instructing us to repudiate ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things,

13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus,

14 who gave himself for us

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I think the bottom line takes us back to my original arguments; The trinity doctrine is inscrutable but "we worship what we know." (John 4:22)

The trinity doctrine cheapens the value of Jesus' sacrifice. If Jesus was able to resurrect himself, then he didn't experience death.

The story of Abraham and Isaac becomes a meaningless footnote.

Jesus identity as the master worker of Proverbs chapter 22 must be ignored.

Full circle, I guess

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neologist wrote:

I think the bottom line takes us back to my original arguments; The trinity doctrine is inscrutable but "we worship what we know." (John 4:22)

The trinity doctrine cheapens the value of Jesus' sacrifice. If Jesus was able to resurrect himself, then he didn't experience death.

The story of Abraham and Isaac becomes a meaningless footnote.

Jesus identity as the master worker of Proverbs chapter 22 must be ignored.

Full circle, I guess

Hi Neologist,

Good to talk to you. Yes, maybe full circle.

What concerns me is you still seem to be stuck on the word "trinity", which I have not insisted on, nor is it necessarily indicative of the position I hold, especially since it holds such a wide variance of meanings and therefore can be easily misapplied.

I am discussing what the Bible says, specifically that Jesus is God, that the Bible refers to Christ as God in many instances, not as "a" God but the One True God.

(That the Bible insists that there is only ONE living God should be a discussion that is pertinent in this respect although I suppose I often take it for granted that this is an acknowledged position by all.)

Why is Christ referred to with the same titles as given to Jehovah God if the Bible were trying to make a clear distinction between the two? Given the Bible's strong stance against worshipping as God anyone else but God, it seems that this distinction would be evident. Instead the Biblical writers go out of their way on numerous occasions, it seems, to identify Christ by the same titles as used for God.

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I do not want to leave the impression that "We worship what we know" means that we can fully comprehend the nature or the workings of God. This is not the case. His ways are still above our ways and His thoughts above our thoughts.

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But that Christ did have power over His own life --

John 10:18 No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again. The commandment on this I received from my Father."

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Regarding Abraham and Isaac, of course it is not meaningless. Exactly what you are saying on this I am not sure.

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Again the allusion to Proverbs 22 perhaps you could elaborate.

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real life wrote:

I am discussing what the Bible says, specifically that Jesus is God, that the Bible refers to Christ as God in many instances, not as "a" God but the One True God.

(That the Bible insists that there is only ONE living God should be a discussion that is pertinent in this respect although I suppose I often take it for granted that this is an acknowledged position by all.)

Why is Christ referred to with the same titles as given to Jehovah God if the Bible were trying to make a clear distinction between the two? Given the Bible's strong stance against worshipping as God anyone else but God, it seems that this distinction would be evident. Instead the Biblical writers go out of their way on numerous occasions, it seems, to identify Christ by the same titles as used for God.

real life wrote:

Regarding Abraham and Isaac, of course it is not meaningless. Exactly what you are saying on this I am not sure.

Imagine Abraham's feelings as he journeyed to Moriah. Could Jehovah have endured similar feelings if he were not Jesus' father, a separate person?

real life wrote:

Again the allusion to Proverbs 22 perhaps you could elaborate.

(Proverbs 8:22,23)"Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth."

(Colossians 1:15, 16) "He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth."

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I can't remember where I read it in the bible, but I believe there is a passage where Jesus says something to the effect that when you see me you see God. I think a lot of people assume from this passage that God and Jesus are the same. I tend to think that he is referring to their spirits, that God and Jesus' spirit are so much alike you can't tell them apart. Their "essence" is the same?

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Welcome to the forum, auroreII. You will find every sort of enlightenment here. Read with discernment. Smile

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neologist wrote:

real life wrote:
Again the allusion to Proverbs 22 perhaps you could elaborate.
(Proverbs 8:22,23)"Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth."

Reading this in context:

23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.

24 When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water.

25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains,

26 when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land.

27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep,

28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong,

29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth,

It is clear that the passage refers not to Christ , but to Wisdom. Wisdom states itself to have been there as a passive observer when He (Jehovah) formed the heavens and the earth, etc. Wisdom does not state "I , Wisdom formed the heavens and the earth" but simply that Wisdom was there.

The New Testament , however , plainly identifies Christ as the active Creator of the heavens and the earth, not a passive bystander while another did it.

Hence the Proverbs 8 passage cannot refer to Christ. So when it speaks of something created by the LORD before the heavens and earth, it is not speaking of the creation of Christ by Jehovah prior to the creation of the heavens and the earth.

It also further affirms Christ as Jehovah since both are identified as the sole Creator of the heavens and the earth.

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neologist wrote:

(Colossians 1:15, 16) "He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth."

This passage we discussed previously. It must be read in context:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,

18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things;

Here in context Christ is being referred to not only as the firstborn, but the firstborn FROM THE DEAD (as also in Revelation 1:5 )

Also the term "firstborn" in the Old Testament was often applied to someone who was not the eldest son, but to one who had the right of headship in the family.

So a literal "birth" or "creation of Christ" is not at all mandated by the term firstborn. In fact, it seems to reflect his rulership as a result of his death (and resurrection) and not by any supposed beginning.

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But here again, you have not given any reason why Christ is referred to not only doing the same exact works as ascribed to Jehovah alone , but also He is referred to with the sames titles as Jehovah God. This would be blasphemy if He were not God, would it not?

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neologist wrote:

real life wrote:
Regarding Abraham and Isaac, of course it is not meaningless. Exactly what you are saying on this I am not sure.
Imagine Abraham's feelings as he journeyed to Moriah. Could Jehovah have endured similar feelings if he were not Jesus' father, a separate person?

Of course, the typology of Abraham and Isaac is not an EXACT picture of the sacrifice of Christ, since Isaac actually was not sacrificed. We cannot look at each detail and try to draw EXACT parallels.

Typology is employed in the scripture to make a central point, not align every detail. Isaac was not sacrificed but he was willing however; and that is the point.

The point of the cross is not how God in Heaven suffered emotionally, it is how Christ willingly gave His body to die on the cross.

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neologist wrote:

Can you imagine Jesus, when near death, crying out "Oh me, Oh my! Why have I forsaken myself?

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Hello everyone. Im sorry to bump in on your charade, but reading this thread is making my head spin. I was brought up thinking Jesus is Gods son. Maybe what they meant in the bible about Jesus being like his fathers image,is that maybe the two look exactly a like. Why ,when Jesus was on the cross suffering did he call to his father,and why did he ask his father to forgive all of us people for our sins.Also I never read or heard anything about him saying he was God.He only said he was king in his fathers heaven.Just as the were kings here along time ago,Because God gave them that gift.Dose anyone agree with this?

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jenniejen wrote:

Hello everyone. Im sorry to bump in on your charade, but reading this thread is making my head spin. I was brought up thinking Jesus is Gods son. Maybe what they meant in the bible about Jesus being like his fathers image,is that maybe the two look exactly a like. Why ,when Jesus was on the cross suffering did he call to his father,and why did he ask his father to forgive all of us people for our sins.Also I never read or heard anything about him saying he was God.He only said he was king in his fathers heaven.Just as the were kings here along time ago,Because God gave them that gift.Dose anyone agree with this?

No argument here. Read my posts. Smile

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jenniejen wrote:

Hello everyone. Im sorry to bump in on your charade, but reading this thread is making my head spin. I was brought up thinking Jesus is Gods son. Maybe what they meant in the bible about Jesus being like his fathers image,is that maybe the two look exactly a like. Why ,when Jesus was on the cross suffering did he call to his father,and why did he ask his father to forgive all of us people for our sins.Also I never read or heard anything about him saying he was God.He only said he was king in his fathers heaven.Just as the were kings here along time ago,Because God gave them that gift.Dose anyone agree with this?

Hi Jen,

Is 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

One of the titles that was given to Jesus is Eternal Father.

There are many other titles referenced in this long thread that are applied equally to Christ and to God the Father. These titles include:

Alpha and Omega --Rev 1: 8 , Rev 21:6-7, Rev 22: 12-13

First and Last -- Is 44:6-7, Rev 2:8, Rev 22:12-13

God --Titus 2:13, I John 5:20, John 20:28

Savior -- Is 43:10-11, Titus 1:3-4, Titus 2:10-13, Titus 3:4-6

Jehovah (LORD) Is 40:3-5, Matt 3:1-3

Creator --Ps 102:24-27, Heb 1:8-12, Is 42:5, John 1:2, Col 1:17,

It has been the belief of the church since earliest times based on the scriptures that Jesus is God.

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Thought I'd post this modern day parable. It is one of those forwards that get sent around through emails. I don't think it is based on anything specificly written in the bible. It seems to be someone's attempt to explain why God might have sent his son into the world. I thought it was interesting.

A Modern Parable
From the Paul Harvey Show

For the cynics, and the skeptics and the unconvinced, May I submit a modern parable? The man I am going to describe was not...he was not a
scrooge. He was a kind, a decent, a mostly good man. He was generous to
his family. He was upright in his dealings with other men. But he just did
not believe in all that incarnation stuff which the churches proclaim at
Christmas time. He was too honest to pretend otherwise. He just could not
swallow the Jesus story about God coming to earth as a man. "I'm truly
sorry to distress you," he told his wife, "but I'm not going with you to
church this Christmas." He said he would feel like a hypocrite--that he would much rather stay at home, but he would stay up for them; so he stayed; they went to the midnight mass.
Shortly after the family drove away in the car, snow began to fall, and he went to the window to watch the snow get heavier and heavier. And he went back to his fireside chair. And he began to read his newspaper. Minutes later he was startled by a thudding sound... And then
another...and then another. At first he thought somebody must be throwing snowballs against the living room window. But when he went to the front door to investigate, he found a flock of birds huddled miserably in the snow. They had been caught in the storm, and in a desperate search for shelter , they tried to fly through his ledge picture window. Well, he could not let the poor creatures lie there and freeze.
So he remembered the barn where his children stabled their pony.
That would provide a warm shelter if he could direct the birds toward it. Quickly he put on a coat and galoshes. He tramped in the deepening snow to the barn. He opened the doors wide and turned on the light. But the birds did not come in.
He figured that food would entice them in, so he hurried back to the house and fetched bear crumbs and sprinkled them on the snow, making a trail to the yellow lighted, wide-open doorway of the stable. But to his dismay, the birds ignored the bread crumbs, and continued to flop around helplessly in the snow.
He tried catching them. He tried shooing them into the barn by
walking around them waving his arms. Instead they just scattered in every direction--except into the warm, lighted barn.
And he realized they were afraid of him. The tiny little birds, to them, he reasoned, I'm a strange terrifying creature. If only I could think of some way to let them know that I'm not trying to hurt them.--But How?--because any move he made tended to frighten them--to confuse them. They just would not follow. They would not be led. They could not be shoved because they feared him.
If only, he thought, If only I could be a bird and mingle with
them--and speak their language..and tell them..not to be afraid...and show
them the way to the safe..warm barn. But I would have to...have to become one of them...so they could see...and hear...and understand.
At that moment the church bells began to ring...and the sound reached his ears above the sound of the wind...
A few minutes later, when his family drove into the driveway from church...they found him...on his knees...in the snow...praying.

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Hi Jen,

Is 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

One of the titles that was given to Jesus is Eternal Father.

There are many other titles referenced in this long thread that are applied equally to Christ and to God the Father. These titles include:

Alpha and Omega --Rev 1: 8 , Rev 21:6-7, Rev 22: 12-13

First and Last -- Is 44:6-7, Rev 2:8, Rev 22:12-13

God --Titus 2:13, I John 5:20, John 20:28

Savior -- Is 43:10-11, Titus 1:3-4, Titus 2:10-13, Titus 3:4-6

Jehovah (LORD) Is 40:3-5, Matt 3:1-3

Creator --Ps 102:24-27, Heb 1:8-12, Is 42:5, John 1:2, Col 1:17,

It has been the belief of the church since earliest times based on the scriptures that Jesus is God.[/quote]

Hi, So do you think Jesus is the only God? I think God planted a seed in Mary so she can have his son. Are you saying Jesus is called God to? I can understand why you say this. In the name of the father the son and the holy spirit.I grew up as a catholic, but I was baptised as a Christen.I grew up believing Jesus is Gods son. I read in the bible somewhere that all religions are Gods people.He excepts them all as long as people except him.I read in the old testament that we are not suppose to eat chicken or animals with hoved feet.We are only suppose to eat fish from the sea with scales on them.If we do eat meat it has to be well done to.(We are not suppose to eat flesh) Also, you are not suppose to touch a women on her period or you will be dirty for 7 days. And If a man leaks he is suppose to wash immiditly.Then is considered dirty until night time. If this is all in there why don't people still follow these things ,and many others from the old testament.

Also, one time a nun came over one of my patients house to give the Gods bread.She would not give it to me because I didn't go to confession, and because I was baptised in a Christen church. This really upset me. I don't think its fair.Then she tells me to figure out what my purpose is here. I know what my purpose is.To spread the word of God, and to make others belive in him.I hope this is my purpose.What do you people think my purpose is? Confused

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Hi Jen;
You might want to edit your post for clarity.
First, cut and paste the following at the very beginning of your post:

real life wrote:

That will help small brained folks like me figure out where real life's words end and yours begin.

Next, run your post through the spell check feature. It won't get everything, but it will help remove some confusion.

For example, what on earth is a nune?

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neologist wrote:

Hi Jen;
You might want to edit your post for clarity.
First, cut and paste the following at the very beginning of your post:
real life wrote:
That will help small brained folks like me figure out where real life's words end and yours begin.

Next, run your post through the spell check feature. It won't get everything, but it will help remove some confusion.

For example, what on earth is a nune?

nun Do you know what a nun is?
Well ,I guess noone wants to answer my questions.

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Well, I guess you showed me a thing or 2!

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/rofl.gif

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neologist wrote:

Well, I guess you showed me a thing or 2!

I was not trying to be funny, but here is to the joke. Laughing

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If Jesus is God, how is he called God's only begotten son?

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