If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

The discussion more or less assumes the bible for the basis of the argument. So -

it says that the judgement, opening of the books, etc. occurs BEFORE the second death so presumably you have a chance to feel something about what is to happen. Only seems fair.

How have you come to decide which parts of the Bible are allegory, and which parts are not? What is the basis of your opinion that Hell is not as described, but that the courtroom-like proceedings of an alleged judgement day and opening of the books are exactly as described? Why is it important to the god to hold court and to make the condemned humans go through a sentencing ceremony? Explain how that only seems fair.

For all intents and purposes, such a ceremony would only serve the purpose of causing those who failed to make the grade to experience psychological pain. Your idea is merely a somewhat evolved version of Harry's idea.

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@Glennn,

Quote:

How have you come to decide which parts of the Bible are allegory, and which parts are not?

Most of the time it is obvious, either from the allegory or metaphor itself or from the context it is in. When it says "the wages of sin is death" , the term 'wages' is obviously a metaphor but the word 'death' is fairly definitive. It can mean only the first death of the body or the second death of the soul.
Of course if you take the book seriously, it says that God's spirit will lead you into the truth of these things.

Quote:

What is the basis of your opinion that Hell is not as described, but that the courtroom-like proceedings of an alleged judgement day and opening of the books are exactly as described?

Because when the consequences of sin are described in different ways, the interpretation that is correct must be the one that is consistent with reason and the rest of the text. The description of hell is just to emphasize the finality of the second death as opposed to the death of the body which is described as 'sleep'.

There are not competing interpretations of the final judgement as far as I know. Not that everything in that description is absolutely literal. I doubt there are actual 'books' there but the meaning of an accurate record of some sort is obvious.

Quote:

Why is it important to the god to hold court and to make the condemned humans go through a sentencing ceremony? Explain how that only seems fair.

For all intents and purposes, such a ceremony would only serve the purpose of causing those who failed to make the grade to experience psychological pain. Your idea is merely a somewhat evolved version of Harry's idea.

It seems fair in several respects. Even in our courts the accused has the right to face his accuser and most would want that, especially if they believe themselves innocent. I would think only the guilty would op out. I suppose the designers of the Nazi death camps experienced psychological pain when on trial but it hardly seems fair to give them a pass for that reason.

And personally, I know I may have this all wrong. If so, I want to know how I got it wrong, I want that judgement day, even if I am to die.

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@Leadfoot,

All I know is, "judge not!" All humans are prone to violent behavior. That's been proven by studies at Stanford and Yale.

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

It seems fair in several respects. Even in our courts the accused has the right to face his accuser.

Yes, but in our courts, the purpose of having a right to face your accuser is to represent yourself and defend your innocence. But if there is no hope of proving your innocence before the god, then the case is settled, and the only purpose served by such a sentencing ceremony is to inflict psychological pain on the defendant. Again, this is simply a somewhat evolved version of what Harry believes--psychological pain instead of physical pain, and of less duration.

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the interpretation that is correct must be the one that is consistent with reason

There is no reason for facing my accuser unless it is for the purpose of defending myself against the accusations.

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The description of hell is just to emphasize the finality of the second death as opposed to the death of the body which is described as 'sleep'.

Are you aware of the descriptions of Hell offered in the Bible? Doesn't sound like sleep to me. If you ask Harry, I'm sure he would be pleased to provide documentation.

Your idea here is that when you're dead and asleep after a car accident, and you weren't saved, the god is going to wake you up for the purpose of telling you to go back to sleep. Does that really sound reasonable to you? I mean really?

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@Glennn,

Human courts are filled with errors. Let me count the ways.

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@cicerone imposter,

I know. I believe that there is even scripture that points to the fact that the god's way is not man's way. But that doesn't stop Bible proponents from using man's court system to explain the god's Judgement Day proceedings. Holding inconsistent ideas in one's belief system is the hallmark of false convictions.

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@Harry Blake,

Romeo, Romeo, is this you again, Romeo?

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@Glennn,

Quote:

Yes, but in our courts, the purpose of having a right to face your accuser is to represent yourself and defend your innocence. But if there is no hope of proving your innocence before the god, then the case is settled, and the only purpose served by such a sentencing ceremony is to inflict psychological pain on the defendant. Again, this is simply a somewhat evolved version of what Harry believes--psychological pain instead of physical pain, and of less duration.

I didn't say the judgement would be a kangaroo court where the only verdict is 'Guilty'. All will be judged according to the record. So you are free to defend yourself based on that record.

Leadfoot Quote:
"the interpretation that is correct must be the one that is consistent with reason "

Quote:

There is no reason for facing my accuser unless it is for the purpose of defending myself against the accusations.

Agreed, I said that in the original post on the subject.

Leadfoot Quote:
The description of hell is just to emphasize the finality of the second death as opposed to the death of the body which is described as 'sleep'.

Quote:

Are you aware of the descriptions of Hell offered in the Bible? Doesn't sound like sleep to me.

I don't think you are actually reading my responses to you. The death in 'hell' is not the first death (of the body) it is the second (death of the soul).

Quote:

Your idea here is that when you're dead and asleep after a car accident, and you weren't saved, the god is going to wake you up for the purpose of telling you to go back to sleep. Does that really sound reasonable to you? I mean really?

Again, you didn't read what I said. When you are woken up from the first death, it is to face the judgement after the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth. After that is when your soul either lives or dies the second death.

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@Leadfoot,

The soul dies with the body. No brain activity means dead.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

All I know is, "judge not!" All humans are prone to violent behavior. That's been proven by studies at Stanford and Yale

Not sure of where you got the 'Judge not' thing but many assume that is from the bible. In context it says not to judge by any standard that you yourself would not be willing to be judged by. It also says "know ye not that ye shall judge angels?".

You, CI, judge all the time, and there is nothing wrong with that unless you are being hypocritical and using standards that you would not be willing to apply to yourself.

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

it says that the judgement, opening of the books, etc. occurs BEFORE the second death so presumably you have a chance to feel something about what is to happen.

That is what you said. Then I asked what the point of judgment is if not to inflict psychological suffering before annihilation. Then you used the human court system to illustrate your idea that we have a right to face our accuser. I then pointed out to you that that is ridiculous, as you are implying that there is a possibility that we can successfully defend ourselves against the god's accusations. That's silly.

So, the question still remains: What sense does it make to be woken from death/sleep to be told to go back to sleep?

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

The soul dies with the body. No brain activity means dead.

The gospel according to CI?

But if you want to trade concepts of the soul, brain, etc, the brain may be nothing more than a 'dumb terminal'.

If you're up for analogies, your iPhone or computer may appear like it is an amazing device that can access all of human knowledge. But it's not. Without that connection to the internet and its resources, its just a dumb terminal. The iphone may die, But the internet lives on...

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@Glennn,

Quote:

That is what you said. Then I asked what the point of judgment is if not to inflict psychological suffering before annihilation. Then you used the human court system to illustrate your idea that we have a right to face our accuser. I then pointed out to you that that is ridiculous, as you are implying that there is a possibility that we can successfully defend ourselves against the god's accusations. That's silly.

I don't understand your confusion. Are you assuming that ALL will be found guilty? That WOULD be silly. According to the book, not all will be. The ones who defend themselves based on the record will not be sentenced to death. They go free and live forever after - again, according to the book.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

The soul dies with the body. No brain activity means dead.

Would you be surprised to hear you understand the Bible better than the average thumper?

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@neologist,

Quote:

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:
"The soul dies with the body. No brain activity means dead."

neologist replied:
Would you be surprised to hear you understand the Bible better than the average thumper?

I smell some 'gospel according to JW' here :-)

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

I don't understand your confusion.

Perhaps that's because I've not shown that I'm confused.

Let me cut to the chase here. Is it your position that, until the god opens the book and reviews your record during judgment ceremonies, it is ignorant of whether or not you are guilty? Before answering, remember that the god knows everything.

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:
"The soul dies with the body. No brain activity means dead."

neologist replied:
Would you be surprised to hear you understand the Bible better than the average thumper?
I smell some 'gospel according to JW' here :-)

Citations have been provided. But, many prefer to believe the allegation made at Genesis 2:4.

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@Glennn,

Quote:

Is it your position that, until the god opens the book and reviews your record during judgment ceremonies, it is ignorant of whether or not you are guilty? Before answering, remember that the god knows everything.

He no doubt knows the content of your record when you die the first death. He gives you the full extent of your lifetime to 'figure this out', make the right choices, etc. But he is willing to air your full record in public to show he has been just in whatever verdict is reached.

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

But he is willing to air your full record in public to show he has been just in whatever verdict is reached.

Doing so makes no sense, as it implies that the god believes that it has to prove that it is a just god. Why would the god need to prove that to those who believe he knows everything and is never wrong?

Again, the question remains: What is the point to judgment day ceremonies if the end result is a foregone conclusion?

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@neologist,

Quote:

Citations have been provided. But, many prefer to believe the allegation made at Genesis 2:4.

I read it, but WTF is that supposed to prove?

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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

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