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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

 
 
fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2005 10:47 pm
watchmakers guidedog wrote:
FredJones: Love the avatar. Good ol' Don Hertzfeld.
Thank you. I consider him personally responsible for warping my brain.
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coluber2001
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2005 11:22 pm
Hell exists because you take your ego too seriously.

A samurai warrior asks a Zen priest, "Is there a heaven and a hell?"

The priest replies, "Why would I discuss such a lofty topic with a mere soldier?"

The priest sees the samurai's expression change and his hand reach for the haft of his sword and quickly says, "That is hell."

Seeing the samurai's expression relax with understanding, the priest says, "That is heaven."
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watchmakers guidedog
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 02:46 am
fredjones wrote:
I consider him personally responsible for warping my brain.


Between Monty Python, Jhonen Vasquez (Johnny the homocidal maniac), Don Hertzfeld (rejected), Warren Ellis (transmetropolitan), Terry Pratchett (discworld), Pete Abrams (sluggy freelance) and many many others my brain is about as warped as it can be.
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inyen
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2005 05:21 pm
Faith and passion thrive on contradictions. An illogical set of ideas in which death turns into life, bad into good, three are one and virgins give birth, inspires a lot of people who think they can really understand the meaning and logic of it. Once they have got the illuminated insight of understanding the impossible, they get this instant urge to convince others of their ideas. Deep in their hearts they know the contradictions don't make sense, but somehow proselytizing makes them forget or repress their own doubts.
By the end of the day, people don't get excited by coherent scientific reasoning. 1+1=2 is logic but dull, 1+1=1 is exciting, 1+1=3 is dangerous.
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watchmakers guidedog
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 10:17 pm
inyen wrote:
inspires a lot of people who think they can really understand the meaning and logic of it. Once they have got the illuminated insight of understanding the impossible, they get this instant urge to convince others of their ideas.


If you immediately know the candlelight is fire, then the meal was cooked a long time ago.
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coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 11:56 pm
The mystery of being cannot be understood logically, it can only be experienced. So when we have religious myths and symbols we can either accept them literally without question or we can take them as meatphors.

In my opinion myths and symbols were never meant, originally, to be taken literally, but, if they are, that's fine too. But with modern science, how many people can still take the aforementioned virgin birth or the parting of the Red Sea literally? Literal religion butts up against science, and the children have a difficult choice to make. Rarely does anyone tell them that the virgin birth can taken as metaphor to represent the spiritual growth that occurs within us as we mature.

That's the probem. Disparate religious groups want more members of like mind to reinforce their beliefs, which is easy, rather than experience personal spiritual growth, which is difficult. The beauty of poetry of religious myths and symbols becomes mundane prose.

Try thinking of the sacrifice of Jesus as metaphor rather than a literal event and you're on the way to a new type of spirituality.
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watchmakers guidedog
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 12:19 am
coluber2001 wrote:
In my opinion myths and symbols were never meant, originally, to be taken literally, but, if they are, that's fine too.


This is why the bible comes with large print inside the front cover saying "All characters in this book are fictitious and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental"... wait a minute, no it doesn't.

You're welcome to take religious myths as literally or as metaphorically as you wish. However since the concept of biblical metaphorics is only a century or two old, pretending that the original meaning was not as a literal document is intellectually dishonest.

Not only that but it as an attempt to invoke non-existant historical support for your point of view it is only valid if one commits the fallacy of Argumentum ad antiquitatem.
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thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 06:15 am
You all speak of the illogicals of religion, yet you have not even mentioned one that is not explained. Before you try to attack the bible, please at least read it and talk with someone else who has an understanding of it.
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ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 06:50 am
(Sorry I came late) on pets:

Dogs say "He feeds me, he looks out for me, he cleans up after me, he cares for me. He must be God."

Cats say "He feeds me, he looks out for me, he cleans up after me, he cares for me. I must be God."
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 07:08 am
Hell exists because :

One of God's angels, Lucifer, thought he was better than God and challenged him, along with some other angels. God cast him out of heaven and Hell was created.

We are "allowed" to go to Hell because God gave us free will. The ability to choose whether we serve God or fight Him. If we accept Him, we will go to heaven. If we deny Him, we go to Hell.
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 07:21 am
Bella Dea
The only hell there is-is the one man makes for himself right here on earth. As for the mythical Lucifer there are many of our world leaders who have in the past and continue to fit that mold.
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 07:25 am
Not for me au. But thanks for trying to tell me other wise. :wink:
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 07:25 am
au1929 wrote:
As for the mythical Lucifer there are many of our world leaders who have in the past and continue to fit that mold.


This I can agree with.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 10:20 am
Bella Dea wrote:
Hell exists because :

One of God's angels, Lucifer, thought he was better than God and challenged him, along with some other angels. God cast him out of heaven and Hell was created.

We are "allowed" to go to Hell because God gave us free will. The ability to choose whether we serve God or fight Him. If we accept Him, we will go to heaven. If we deny Him, we go to Hell.


So basically God is saying... "do what I say or you will burn for eternity in Hell"

This is where this theology breaks down.

I choose to go to Heaven (or at least to avoid hell). I also choose to do the things that make my life enjoyable and meaningful... even though this goes against the Bible.

Now there is the strange variant of "accepting Jesus" with grace and faith and all that. But, this is an inherent contradiction.

I did accept Jesus (I was converted twice... once when I was 12). So, now that I am agnostic and don't even make an attempt to continue my once religious life... am I still covered? (This is an issue of debate amoung the Protestant denominations.)

Can I accept Jesus... and still enter a civil union with the same sex partner that I love? Is it heaven or hell for me in this case?

But anyway... "do what I say or suffer a horrible fate"... is not free will. Heck, people in Stalinist Russia had this kind of "free will". You were free think, say, write whatever you wanted... if you didn't mind being tortured and sent to a prison work camp.

This part of Christianity has always been a big problem.
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thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 10:41 am
He has set a standard for us, which one of the ten commandments is so hard for you to understand?
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ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 11:00 am
You are avoiding the basic problem with Christianity that I was raising in my post.

I understand what the ten commandments say. I don't understand why a loving God would condemn anyone to an eternity of torture for not following them.

Many of them I agree with (not killing for example), but here is the question...

Would God condemn someone he loved to an eternity in Hell for working on Saturday?
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 11:01 am
thunder_runner32
Which version of the ten commandments are you referring to the Hebrew,Protestant or Catholic ? They seem to have been doctored to fit. Particularly the one about having no god before me.
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 11:04 am
ebrown_p wrote:


So basically God is saying... "do what I say or you will burn for eternity in Hell"



Where did you get that from my post?
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 11:08 am
Brown
Quote:
Would God condemn someone he loved to an eternity in Hell for working on Saturday?


Only if that somebody were Jewish. In addition we do not talk of eternity our standard for the longest time in purgatory is 12 months. :wink:
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 11:16 am
Bella Dea wrote:

We are "allowed" to go to Hell because God gave us free will. The ability to choose whether we serve God or fight Him. If we accept Him, we will go to heaven. If we deny Him, we go to Hell.


Bella Dea wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:


So basically God is saying... "do what I say or you will burn for eternity in Hell"



Where did you get that from my post?


I think we are saying the same thing. I am just being a bit more blunt is all.

You said there are two choices...

1) You used the terms "Serve God" and "accept Him" to describe the first choice. I assume that doing either of these things means I will do what God says.

Am I wrong in this assumption.

2) You used the term "deny God" for the second choice, and said that we would be "allowed" to go to Hell. I don't think you meant "allowed" especial since you clearly said "if we deny Him,we go to Hell".

I assume that not doing what God says is what you mean by "denying God". Is this asumption correct.

So you say "If we deny God, we go to Hell".
I say "Do what [God says] or you will burn for eternity in Hell."

Please explain how these are different.
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