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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

 
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 11:21 am
If I believe in God but deny Jesus which bus shall I get on? Question Question
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 11:22 am
Well, coming from a devout catholic, that post might have meant what you thought it did however, being me, that's not what I meant. :wink:

I guess by accept God I mean, believe in Him, be a good person and try to live your life the best you can. Not necessarily go all Jesus Freak and witness to the world but not be ashamed to believe either.

By denying God, I meant not believing (but then you wouldn't believe in hell either :wink: ) and doing evil even though you know it is wrong (murder, crime, being a nasty, horrible person).

I truly believe that unless you are really bent on being a bad person (serial killer or child molester for example) you will probably go to heaven. I don't believe that swearing will send you straight to hell. Or that working on the Sabbath will cause you an eternity of suffering.

Does that make more sense?
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 11:33 am
Bella Dea
So do I! What I find hard to believe in is organized religions. I do not believe we need an intermediary between us and God.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 11:39 am
Bella Dea wrote:
I truly believe that unless you are really bent on being a bad person (serial killer or child molester for example) you will probably go to heaven. I don't believe that swearing will send you straight to hell. Or that working on the Sabbath will cause you an eternity of suffering.


Thanks Bella. You just made my day!

I am neither a serial killer nor a child molester. I do swear on occasion and I work on Saturday far more than I would like.

Knowing that I will still probably go to heaven is good enough for me.
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 11:41 am
au1929 wrote:
Bella Dea
So do I! What I find hard to believe in is organized religions. I do not believe we need an intermediary between us and God.


Me too. Which is hard for my parents to swallow since I was raised Catholic. My grandma didn't want me to have my wedding outside because it HAD to be in a church. Question Ok...God is NOT outside? Sure....
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 11:42 am
ebrown_p wrote:


I am neither a serial killer nor a child molester.
.


Good thing on both those accounts. :wink:
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thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 12:39 pm
Quote:
What I find hard to believe in is organized religions. I do not believe we need an intermediary between us and God.
Right, if you believe that Jesus is God, then there is no intermediary. I also agree that organized religion often gives christianity a bad name, but the church has had a huge role in the preservation of the word of God. The problem once again is not in the church, but rather in the humans that always f*@k up a good thing.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 12:50 pm
Quote:
... organized religion often gives christianity a bad name, but the church has had a huge role in the preservation of the word of God. The problem once again is not in the church, but rather in the humans that always f*@k up a good thing.


Huh? This doesn't make any sense.

The "church" (pick a church) is certainly is the problem...

First, churches have been far to inconsistant to have a role in the preservation of anything. Some believe in war, some in peace. Some supported slavery. Others hate Jews.

The only consistant thing in churches is a belief that someone else is going ot hell.

Second there is no difference between "church", "organized religion" and "the humans that always [mess] up a good thing". These three terms all refer to the same thing.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 12:59 pm
Thunder wrote
Quote:

Right, if you believe that Jesus is God, then there is no intermediary.


According to my copy of the ten commandments that would be heresy. Embarrassed
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 01:04 pm
Thunder wrote
...
Quote:
organized religion often gives Christianity a bad name, but the church has had a huge role in the preservation of the word of God. The problem once again is not in the church, but rather in the humans that always f*@k up a good thing.


The only thing the church {religion} had a huge roll in, is war, massacre, genocide, intolerance and divisiveness .
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 01:10 pm
Au, I have to disagree.

There is no "the church". There are lots of churches and many of them have had nothing to do with genocide or massacres. Some of them (Quakers for example) have nothing to do with war.

Intolerence and divisiveness are parts of human nature and are present in any group of people-- churches included.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 01:18 pm
ebrown_p
One only need look at the history of Europe to confirm my statement.

Brown wrote
Quote:
Intolerence and divisiveness are parts of human nature and are present in any group of people-- churches included.


Sure but religion feeds the monster.
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inyen
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 04:25 pm
Now let me try to solve this:

If Christianity is right, Islam and other religions must be wrong. However if Islam is right, Christianity and other religions must be wrong. They are divisive ideologies.

Because if both were right, we could just edit them to keep the common good stuff in and trash the superfluous and end up with, say, civil law. That certainly would make things a lot easier. But these catholics would have to get rid of Mary and the pope and all that, and Muslims would find no need to walk around their Kaaba, which they never will give up either.

Now if both Islam and Christianity are wrong, things get a lot easier as well; we can all agree on the laws of nature and science, so let us simply declare Nature to be God, and supernatural as a synonym of superstition. Then recognize protecting the environment as a holy duty and George W Bush as one of the greatest sinners of our times. These so-called primitive people all adored nature anyway, so we should simply skip the religious aberrations of the last millennia and get back to basics.

And continue celebrating the winter solstice (aka Christmas) with a nice green tree.
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booman2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 04:33 pm
Actually I see a bit of the truth in maajor religions and philosophies, but you can't accept any of them verbatum.. (If you are a thinking person)

And in conclusion see below.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 10:37 pm
Read Genesis carefully. When God breathed life into Adam, he BECAME a living soul. Note: He did not RECEIVE a soul. The soul is mortal. That is why Solomon reminds us that the dead are "conscious of nothing at all". The state of death is one of inactivity. (Ec 9:5, 10; Ps 146:4) In both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures, death is likened to sleep.

Hell is the Anglicization of the Hebrew word sheol, or mankind's common grave. Since there is no consciousness in sheol, there is obviously no punishment in hell. The doctrine of a fiery hell is just another hoax perpetrated on humankind by power hungry clergy. 2 Cents
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watchmakers guidedog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 11:33 pm
Bella Dea wrote:
I guess by accept God I mean, believe in Him, be a good person and try to live your life the best you can. Not necessarily go all Jesus Freak and witness to the world but not be ashamed to believe either.

By denying God, I meant not believing (but then you wouldn't believe in hell either :wink: ) and doing evil even though you know it is wrong (murder, crime, being a nasty, horrible person).


Let me just try to untangle your logic here.

Denying God = Atheism + Evil actions. = Hell
Accepting God = Theism + Good actions. = Heaven

Somewhat unconventional definitions, but certainly workable. And yet:

? = Atheism + Good actions = ?
? = Theism + Evil actions = ?
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 06:54 am
watchmakers guidedog wrote:


Let me just try to untangle your logic here.

Denying God = Atheism + Evil actions. = Hell
Accepting God = Theism + Good actions. = Heaven

Somewhat unconventional definitions, but certainly workable. And yet:

? = Atheism + Good actions = ?
? = Theism + Evil actions = ?


Personally, (and no one stone me for this) for the most part, I think that if you don't believe in God you're in trouble, no matter what you do. But I could be wrong. I would never condemn anyone for not believing and there are certainly enough people out there willing to convert atheists but I won't force my beliefs on you either. We are all entitled to our own beliefs and when I see all those atheists in heaven I will have to take back my statements. Very Happy

Here is where it gets a little hairy...and confusing. (And sometimes I have very conflicting beliefs...I will be the first to recognize that.)

I guess it comes down to why...if you were raised atheist and you don't know anything else, how can you be blamed? I know that the chuch teaches that ignorance is not an excuse but I don't think God would condemn so many people because they were misinformed. According to Christians all other religions are wrong. And vice versa. So do I think that all atheists will go to hell regardless of action? No.

Secondly, even if you believe in God but are a bad person, I already said you are going to hell.

Does that make any more sense? I was raised Catholic and I have been struggling with my spirituality for some time. (not real thrilled with the Catholic church) I am trying to express the way I feel about this as best I can so if it doesn't make sense, I apologize.
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 06:58 am
neologist wrote:


Hell is the Anglicization of the Hebrew word sheol, or mankind's common grave. Since there is no consciousness in sheol, there is obviously no punishment in hell. The doctrine of a fiery hell is just another hoax perpetrated on humankind by power hungry clergy. 2 Cents


This is what I was taught. And I believe this more than "firey hell".
Hell is the absence of God; being able to see God and the glory and happiness that is Heaven but not being able to be there.

It's like a black room and the only light is a stream coming from Heaven and you are there, alone always wanting to be in the light. Something like that.

Don't laugh...it's the best description I could come up with. :wink:
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yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 08:32 am
as an agnostic, what worries me is Jesus' statement that "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." by that standard, it wouldn't surprise me to find myself in the presence of televangelists in the afterlife, and i've already had my fill of their moralizing in my earthly existence.

for anyone else worried about condemnation to eternal suffering for their unbelief, i have it from a literalist Biblical scholar that there are degrees of punishment in Hell. i can provide chapter & verse upon request.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 09:07 am
yitwail wrote:

for anyone else worried about condemnation to eternal suffering for their unbelief, i have it from a literalist Biblical scholar that there are degrees of punishment in Hell. i can provide chapter & verse upon request.


Since you are an agnostic, you obviously don't believe it. I can reassure you that the bible does not support the idea of an automatic after life. The fact is when you're dead you're dead. No awareness. No aloneness. No roasting, toasting, baking or broiling. So you're safe as far as that is concerned.

If you want to talk about the possibility of a resurrection, that's a different story.
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