80
   

If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

 
 
theMadOne
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2021 11:01 am
@Leadfoot,
What about the REST of you?
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2021 11:11 am
@theMadOne,
Are you used to people paying attention?

That's nice.

If we didn't have Hell we couldn't say, "One helluva good time."

That's the reason, and it's the only reason.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2021 11:28 am
@theMadOne,
theMadOne wrote:

Is anyone going to answer the topics QUESTION?


I've read YOUR attempt at that...and all I see is a guess offered as an assertion.

Perhaps it is better to just beat around the bush...than do that.

But...let's give it an attempt...for the fun of it.

Facts are:

We do not KNOW if there are any gods.
We do not KNOW (if there happen to be any) if any are like the one supposed by Christians.
Therefore we do not KNOW if a god like the one supposed by Christians decided to include a "Heaven" and/or a "Hell."

If there is a Heaven...it certainly makes sense to suppose it was created by the god to "reward" humans who did what the god wanted them to do...and did not do the things it wanted them not to do. (With this god...the "Heaven" could be the size of a local Elks Lodge building...and be adequate.}

If there is a Hell...it certainly makes sense to suppose it was created by the god to "punish" humans who did what the wanted them NOT to do...and who did not do the things it wanted them to do.

What does the supposition that Jesus died for our sins have to do with that? The notion of the sacrifice supposes a totally useless sacrifice.

And if you are supposing that any "punishment" that might accrue will be met without the existence of a "hell"...fine.

Of course, a supposition 180 degrees at odds with your supposition is every bit as good.
theMadOne
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2021 11:35 am
@Frank Apisa,
I talking strictly based on the Bible.
Can't help if you don't believe it.
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2021 06:18 pm
Lot of people say their beliefs are based on the Bible, but not many can defend that claim.

Disappointing to me too.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2021 06:45 am
@theMadOne,
theMadOne wrote:

I talking strictly based on the Bible.
Can't help if you don't believe it.


Okay. But since you wrote, "I guess the answer is OBVIOUS, there is no fiery place called..HELL!" So you are saying that the Bible says, "There is no fiery place called Hell?"

Can you give us the Chapter and Verse where that is said...or strongly intimated?
izzythepush
 
  4  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2021 07:09 am
@Frank Apisa,
Contrast it with the Norse version of Hell.

The Norse Hell is very cold because it originated where it was very cold. The Abrahamic Hell is very hot because it came out of the desert.

The image of demons with pitchforks comes from the Orient.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2021 07:11 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
If there is a Heaven...it certainly makes sense to suppose it was created by the god to "reward" humans who did what the god wanted them to do...and did not do the things it wanted them not to do. (With this god...the "Heaven" could be the size of a local Elks Lodge building...and be adequate.}

If there is a Hell...it certainly makes sense to suppose it was created by the god to "punish" humans who did what the wanted them NOT to do...and who did not do the things it wanted them to do.

What does the supposition that Jesus died for our sins have to do with that? The notion of the sacrifice supposes a totally useless sacrifice.


It's because of the standard of Heaven and Hell. Watch the show The Good Place. There's one episode where they are at the cenrer where people are filed for the Good Place, Bad Place, or Neutral Place. The Neutral Place only has one inhabitant prior to them adding that guy, and the Good Place has not had a person in 700 years. It's like that, only even more extreme. If we were talking about God's standards, not Abraham himself would be faultless.

The point of the sacrifice is to cover the debt of sin that keeps us from getting near Heaven. Without it, all who die are bound for the same place.

None of us deserve the reward, all deserve punishment. Grace is things that are awarded despite being earned.

Leadfoot predicted that something might slip out. This is what it is. That you have a very basic and flawed notion of the how and why of Heaven, Hell, and Jesus. You can work on that.

Or you can sound like a broken record and keep telling ppl they don't know.

Start with the answer to your question by asking, "Why do the creeds talk of how Jesus descended into Hell?" Now some translate this as " the grave" but this misses the point. The point is a jailbreak.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell
https://carm.org/doctrine-and-theology/why-did-jesus-have-to-die-for-our-sins/
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2021 07:38 am
Ahem. It should read "...despite not being earned."
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2021 08:01 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

It's because of the standard of Heaven and Hell. Watch the show The Good Place. There's one episode where they are at the cenrer where people are filed for the Good Place, Bad Place, or Neutral Place. The Neutral Place only has one inhabitant prior to them adding that guy, and the Good Place has not had a person in 700 years. It's like that, only even more extreme. If we were talking about God's standards, not Abraham himself would be faultless.


Watch the show????? Watch the show!

C'mon.

Quote:
The point of the sacrifice is to cover the debt of sin that keeps us from getting near Heaven. Without it, all who die are bound for the same place.


Why?

A sin is something that displeases your god. If your god wants to have that "debt" covered, the god could do it any way it wanted to.

But apparently you (and Jesus) felt that your god was of the mind, "I will forgive you for offending me, but first you must torture and kill my son."

If that god where a human demanding that...ALL OF YOU PEOPLE would agree that he should be put into a mental institution.

Quote:
None of us deserve the reward, all deserve punishment. Grace is things that are awarded despite being earned.


None of us deserve punishment or reward. We each live our lives...doing the things we want to do...and not doing the things we do not want to do. If your god is offended by that...there is something seriously wrong with your god. (Or more likely, something seriously wrong with your blind guesses about your god.)

Quote:
Leadfoot predicted that something might slip out. This is what it is. That you have a very basic and flawed notion of the how and why of Heaven, Hell, and Jesus. You can work on that.


You are asserting that you know what Jesus, Heaven and Hell truly are...and that my notions are flawed.

But MY NOTIONS are that I do not know.

There is nothing wrong with my notion that I do not know...BECAUSE I DO NOT KNOW.


Quote:

Or you can sound like a broken record and keep telling ppl they don't know.


Yeah, I am telling you that your assertions about the true nature of the REALITY of existence...ARE NOTHING BUT BLIND GUESSES.

The only reason I am doing that is because your assertions about the true nature of the REALITY of existence ARE NOTHING BUT BLIND GUESSES.

Quote:
Start with the answer to your question by asking, "Why do the creeds talk of how Jesus descended into Hell?" Now some translate this as " the grave" but this misses the point. The point is a jailbreak.


Why?

Because your blind guess is that the creed actually tells us something about the REALITY?

Wake the hell up!
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2021 08:24 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Quote: bulma said-
“The point of the sacrifice is to cover the debt of sin that keeps us from getting near Heaven. Without it, all who die are bound for the same place.”


Frank replied:
Why?

A sin is something that displeases your god. If your god wants to have that "debt" covered, the god could do it any way it wanted to.

But apparently you (and Jesus) felt that your god was of the mind, "I will forgive you for offending me, but first you must torture and kill my son."

If that god where a human demanding that...ALL OF YOU PEOPLE would agree that he should be put into a mental institution.

Oh how strange, that the guy who agrees with him, is on ignore.

Just love the irony
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2021 03:35 pm
@theMadOne,
theMadOne wrote:

Of COURSE it has religious meanings attached.
Do you think Christ was referring to such a place?

Which books, chapters, and verses?
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2021 04:50 pm
@izzythepush,
Don't they?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2021 04:54 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
Oh how strange, that the guy who agrees with him, is on ignore.
Just love the irony

Frank isn't capable of using facts or logic. If he did not place people on ignore he would be barraging them with lies and name-calling instead.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2021 05:28 pm
@oralloy,
You there too? I should'a known.
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2021 12:12 am
@Frank Apisa,
Watch the show.

You know you want to.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2021 12:45 am
@Frank Apisa,
Stop using the definitions of half-assed professors who don't study real theology. Start listening when real people tell you your teachers are full of crap.

Sin is defined many different ways by real theological ppl. Ask a word scholar, and they say that the origin of the word actually refers to "trespassing" that is overstepping boundaries ( things like rape and murder; remember, ask for permission before you murder someone). Ask another, and it refers to missing the mark (in the Bible, in Timothy). Ask another, and it's what separates one from God. But the Bible itself mentions that nothing can separate us from the love of God. Ask still another, and they talk about the forbidden machina, and how Sin is really this guy.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--bixFXhaK--/c_fill,fl_progressive,g_center,h_900,q_80,w_1600/zfo2rabytprqqcefteae.jpg

While you're watching The Good Place, also play Final Fantasy X. We can NEVER banish sin. We can only stand against it by ridding ourselves of false hopes. Sin will always come back because our approach itself is wrong. You can't earn your way into Heaven through any good deed, you won't get sent to Hell, but you WILL die.

http://www.historymatters.group.shef.ac.uk/finding-jesus-video-games/

You have assumed that my God is offended by any of this. No, no. I AM offended. Your utter lack of curiosity (I feel like you basically live the life that the Buddha was almost subjected to, sheltered from realities and thinking or questioning too much), your terrible lack of insight into places and situations, nah that's just appalling.

You need to watch more anime. I must teach you the weirding way.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2021 07:05 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

Watch the show.

You know you want to.


Watch Sesame Street, Bulma. You know you want to.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2021 07:13 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

Stop using the definitions of half-assed professors who don't study real theology. Start listening when real people tell you your teachers are full of crap.

Sin is defined many different ways by real theological ppl. Ask a word scholar, and they say that the origin of the word actually refers to "trespassing" that is overstepping boundaries ( things like rape and murder; remember, ask for permission before you murder someone). Ask another, and it refers to missing the mark (in the Bible, in Timothy). Ask another, and it's what separates one from God. But the Bible itself mentions that nothing can separate us from the love of God. Ask still another, and they talk about the forbidden machina, and how Sin is really this guy.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--bixFXhaK--/c_fill,fl_progressive,g_center,h_900,q_80,w_1600/zfo2rabytprqqcefteae.jpg

While you're watching The Good Place, also play Final Fantasy X. We can NEVER banish sin. We can only stand against it by ridding ourselves of false hopes. Sin will always come back because our approach itself is wrong. You can't earn your way into Heaven through any good deed, you won't get sent to Hell, but you WILL die.

http://www.historymatters.group.shef.ac.uk/finding-jesus-video-games/

You have assumed that my God is offended by any of this. No, no. I AM offended. Your utter lack of curiosity (I feel like you basically live the life that the Buddha was almost subjected to, sheltered from realities and thinking or questioning too much), your terrible lack of insight into places and situations, nah that's just appalling.

You need to watch more anime. I must teach you the weirding way.


You are not bright enough to teach anyone anything.

Sin...is merely something that offends a god.

If YOU are offended by it...and your god is not...it is not a sin. It merely is something that offend you. You, rightly, should be offended by your stupidity...but it is not a sin.

You do not discuss theology...or religion. YOU mostly discuss your blind guesses about the REALITY of existence.

It is kinda cute watching you do it. I enjoy the laughs.

Wink



0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2021 07:27 am
@Frank Apisa,
I saw the very last episode of The Good Place, my daughter in law was watching it.

I thought it was dreadful. I would have rather seen Sesame Street
 

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