If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

@Glennn,

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Doing so makes no sense, as it implies that the god believes that it has to prove that it is a just god. Why would the god need to prove that to those who believe he knows everything and is never wrong?

Again, the question remains: What is the point to judgment day ceremonies if the end result is a foregone conclusion?

Because, he valued our opinion.

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@Leadfoot,

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Because, he valued our opinion

Now you're implying that the god is possibly swayed by the opinions of those being judged. However, you have already stated in an earlier post that the god no doubt knows the content of your record when you die the first death.

What is the value of an opinion in a matter where the result is a forgone conclusion?

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@Leadfoot,

So, you don't get the sense of it?
OK, well . . .
God said if you eat the fruit, you will die.
Satan said you won't.
You seem to believe the latter.

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@Glennn,

Quote:

Now you're implying that the god is possibly swayed by the opinions of those being judged. However, you have already stated in an earlier post that the god no doubt knows the content of your record when you die the first death.

What is the value of an opinion in a matter where the result is a forgone conclusion?

I didn't say he was swayed. I said he valued our opinion. Even if you know someone you love is wrong, if you have any respect for them, you don't just say, got to hell. You go to the trouble of explaining to them why they are wrong, and why you can't go along with their error.

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@Leadfoot,

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I didn't say he was swayed. I said he valued our opinion. Even if you know someone you love is wrong, if you have any respect for them, you don't just say, got to hell. You go to the trouble of explaining to them why they are wrong, and why you can't go along with their error.

The only reason to value another's opinion is if you intend to consider it. And the only reason you would consider it is because you are open to adjusting your judgment accordingly.

And where in the Bible did you discover that the god values our opinion?

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@Glennn,

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And where in the Bible did you discover that the god values our opinion?

I kind of inferred that from "For God so loved the world that he have his Only Begotten Son [for us]...". I would value the opinion of anyone who I loved that much. And since it says I was created in his image I assumed he would feel the same way.

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@Leadfoot,

I see . . .

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@neologist,

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So, you don't get the sense of it?
OK, well . . .
God said if you eat the fruit, you will die.
Satan said you won't.
You seem to believe the latter.

Well yeah. We do in fact die. We die the first death (of our bodies, including our brain). Our souls sleep at that point as Paul said. Is there some reason I shouldn't believe that?

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@Leadfoot,

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I kind of inferred that from "For God so loved the world that he have his Only Begotten Son [for us]...". I would value the opinion of anyone who I loved that much. And since it says I was created in his image I assumed he would feel the same way.

But we've already established that the only reason to value another's opinion is if you intend to consider it. And the only reason you would consider it is if you are open to adjusting your judgment accordingly. And we already know that the god is not going to be swayed by our opinion. So . . .

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@Glennn,

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But we've already established that the only reason to value another's opinion is if you intend to consider it. And the only reason you would consider it is if you are open to adjusting your judgment accordingly. And we already know that the god is not going to be swayed by our opinion. So . . .

Again, it sounds like you think 'guilty' is the only possible verdict. If you can validate your opinion (show that it does not contradict itself) I'm confident you would not be found guilty.

The worst part of that psychological pain you mentioned is no doubt caused by being shown the contradictions in our opinions. An opinion that is contradictory is not a valid one and therefore not deserving of respect or consideration.

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@Leadfoot,

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Again, it sounds like you think 'guilty' is the only possible verdict. If you can validate your opinion (show that it does not contradict itself) I'm confident you would not be found guilty.

Again, it sounds like you believe that one's opinion can sway the god's verdict of guilt against you.

My point about Judgment Day is that the god is already quite aware of whether or not you’ve made the grade. There is no scripture indicating that that is not so. There is also no scripture that indicates anything like an opinion phase of the Judgment Day proceedings. There is, however, scripture that indicates that the god is aware of one’s guilt or innocence prior to Judgment Day. This makes Judgment day a meaningless and pointless exercise.

Believing that there is to be an opinion phase of the Judgment Day proceedings for the purpose of facing your accuser--the god--is to believe in the possibility that your assessment of things is superior to the god’s, and that the god might see his error in judging you guilty. The god knows whether or not you’ve made the grade. So, for all intents and purposes, Judgment day amounts to waking up those who are asleep to tell them, “No paradise for you. Now go back to sleep.”

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@Glennn,

said- there is however scripture that indicates that the god is aware of one’s guilt or innocence prior to Judgment Day.."
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Which scripture exactly?

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@Glennn,

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Again, it sounds like you believe that one's opinion can sway the god's verdict of guilt against you.

As I said, yes, if you came by your opinion honestly, it does.

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My point about Judgment Day is that the god is already quite aware of whether or not you’ve made the grade. There is no scripture indicating that that is not so. There is also no scripture that indicates anything like an opinion phase of the Judgment Day proceedings. This makes Judgment day a meaningless and pointless exercise.

I'm sure he does know if he's seen every thought and act, but he gives you until your very last day to form your 'final' opinion about the basics. He doesn't pass final judgement even on that before your last day of life on old earth. And, as I have said before, you have until that first death just to 'get the basics right'. There is still that 1000 year period before judgement day to get the details nailed down. Kripes a'mighty, what more respect for your opinion could you ask for?

I'm sure you will argue that even with the delay, it's still a done deal on judgement day. I've explained before that even if I haven't got it right, I still want to know where I screwed up before final death. I won't pretend to have walked in your shoes but from what you've said, I'd think you would want the chance to at least say "You never gave a **** about my opinion you sorry assed excuse for a God".

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@Harry Blake,

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Which scripture exactly?

Psalm 139: 4. What do you make of that? Does the god know the end from the beginning?

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@Leadfoot,

Judge not.

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@Leadfoot,

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I'm sure he does know if he's seen every thought and act

Then there is no need for Judgment Day and a reading of the record. Your fate is a foregone conclusion.

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I'd think you would want the chance to at least say "You never gave a **** about my opinion you sorry assed excuse for a God".

You would be incorrect. Why would I care be aware of the fact that I didn't make the grade and am about to be annihilated? Your belief about my wanting the chance to vent my anger towards the god for not giving a **** about my opinion is not based on reason.

Again, my opinion concerning the god's reasoning will have no bearing on its decision concerning my fate. The god allegedly knows more than I do. There's no arguing with that.

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@Glennn,

said- "Psalm 139: 4. What do you make of that? Does the god know the end from the beginning?"
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"Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely" (Psalm 134:4)
On the other hand, God tested Abraham by ordering him to kill his young son, but as he raised the knife God said through an angel-
“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God" (Genesis 22:12)

See, "now I know" proves that God didn't know before!
Therefore we shouldn't read too much into the wordplay of Psalm 134:4, for example if somebody hits their thumb with a hammer we don't have to be God to know what he's going to say as he hops around in pain.. Wink

Furthermore, Jesus said "I was sent to save the world", but if God already knew which of us were going to be saved, there'd have been no need to send Jesus.. Smile

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So he can die again to forgive us time and again, or otherwise Christ goes Extinct ! Road to hell n heaven must be infinite or God and the Devil would be unemployed selling the walk without an Eternity to get there. Hell n Heaven are empty places towards where people walk to infinitely...they place holders what else...learn to read the "ecosystem"....

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@Harry Blake,

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See, "now I know" proves that God didn't know before!

Well, actually it was the angel of the lord who said, "For now I know that thou fearest God." But what kind of a game is the god into? It says, "Abraham, I want you to kill your son as a burnt offering to me." And what kind of a father is Abraham who says, sure. Anything for you? Even after the the angel stops him, he burns a ram, presumably because that's what the god thrives on. WTF?? What the hell is up with the god that he requires such things?

But anyway, the issue of the god's foreknowledge in this discussion concerns the fact that, once you're dead, the god is aware of whether or not you made the grade; no foreknowledge of events required; just knowledge of your past. So, what is the purpose of waking you up just to tell you to go back to sleep?

I understand that you and Leadfoot differ in your opinions about the ultimate destination of those retched Jesus deniers, and so this is more for him than you.

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@Glennn,

Wouldn't you like to be arisen from the dead to see for yourself that God can bring you back? I would want to know I made the wrong choice. LOL

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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

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