BeeZarre

Dookiestix wrote:

edgarblythe wrote:
The subject of this thread is vegetative. Vegetative.

As in, there IS no awareness, no nothing, because the brain is basically dead.

What say mysteryman to that particular quality of life? How is that living?

basically, dooks? the part of the brain that is the person is gone in this case. it's not living. it is existing only to sooth the emotions of others and some who's religious faldarol is more important than anything else.

the shindler's agony is being used to advance the agenda of a small group of out of control religious zealots. this can be evidenced by the emergence of randall terry as a "shindler family spokesman".

and the evangelicals wonder why people are coming down on them. they want a culture war? it's coming...

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I think is much more complicated than meets the eye. I also don't see what religion or political affliations have to do with it. I feel sorrow for the parents.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35085

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I think we can all agree that it is unutterably sad for the parents.

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Dookiestix wrote:

How about copying and pasting something that I don't have to register with, Ticomaya...

Since you asked so nicely, Dookie, I'll fix it ..... just for you though ..... Link

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Now, how about a more unbiased piece, Ticomaya?

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From Bushflash.com:

Quote:

Before I get into my coverage of the antiwar rally, I just want to to point out the absurd idiocy of this whole Schiavo idiocy.

First off: Bill Frist: a medical doctor by trade, a man who believes that AIDS can be spread by tears (WRONG) came wobbling onto the senate floor, and said that after watching a few videotapes of Schiavo, his professional diagnosis was that she was "not in a persistent vegetative state." Well, thanks for the diagnosis, doc- the problem is, you're a cardio doc- not a neurological specialist. Your medical opinion, in this case, is as worthy as that of a podiatrist on the subject of anal cysts.

Secondly: George Bush: a hopeless, bumbling spectacle to behold, on any occasion. It's common knowledge that Bush, as Texas Governor, signed into law a bill that MANDATES the removal of feeding tubes from terminally ill patients, even when the family objects.

Under this legislation, if the family doesn't have the cash to keep the terminally ill alive, the hospital is ORDERED to pull the plug. (how's that for "erring on the side of life?")

And hell- when has bush shown ANY respect for life? The man who was known as the "texecutioner" isn't really in a position to claim any adherence to the "culture of life" he continually evokes.

Thirdly: The Congress: Good freaking lord- sometimes, I agree with the more conservative americans: Congress doesn't work very hard, for the money they earn, and danged if you can pull them out of their generous off-time. But in this case, most of congress flew back to washington (at what expense to the taxpayer), just to participate in this fraud.

Fourthly: The media: if ya didn't know, 800 vigils and marches against the continued war in Iraq took place, this weekend, in this country- but the only thing you hear about it (between the constant Schiavo BS), are a few shots of protests in LONDON.

This was an insane media distraction and spectacle, and had less to do with Schiavo, herself, than a token bone that Bush could throw to his "pro-life" base.

-- Erich Blumrich

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I'm afraid I have no control over the Toronto media, Dookie.

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Dookiestix wrote:

From Bushflash.com:
.....

.... speaking of "unbiased." Thanks Dookie.

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Here is an interesting report from a Nobel Prize nominee about Terri...
http://libertytothecaptives.net/hammesfahr_dr._report.html

From the link...
"I was asked to examine Terri Schiavo per the request of the Second District Court of Appeal. They requested that current information about her present medical condition be obtained. They also requested that an evaluation be performed to ascertain treatment options."

"During 1998, she was evaluated by Dr. James Barnhill, neurologist, who testified that he examined her for ten minutes and determined that she had no chance for recovery, and was in a persistent vegetative state. He also identified that her skull was filled with spinal fluid; there was no brain present on the scans. All responses he identified were reported as "reflexes." He obtained no blood pressure nor did anyone else, apparently, on the day of his exam, the closest documented blood pressures being obtained two days earlier and five days later. No tests including Urinary Tract infection evaluations, blood tests, EEGs, evoked potentials, or new CT/MRI exams were ordered.

One year later he again reconfirmed his earlier diagnosis. He felt no tests of any sort were needed for evaluation. In the spring of 2000, three physicians, including Dr. Jay Carpenter, who is a former Chief of Medicine at Morton Plant Hospital, filed affidavits after observing Ms. Schiavo. All three physicians stated that it is visually apparent that Ms Schiavo is able to swallow and, in fact, does swallow her own saliva."

"The first part of this exam included observing her interactions with her mother and her father. Here she clearly was aware of them and attempted to interact with them: the sounds, facial expressions, and searching out and tracking them. There are several previous reports by medical personnel and others of her responding to live piano music. Accordingly, I asked the mother to bring a tape of piano music. Two separate pieces were listened to. The first she appeared aware of the sound, but would not sing or interact significantly. The second she did interact making sounds with the music. She stopped making these sounds, when the music stopped.

During this time, she would move her head and track her head and eyes to the sound of music, or her mother's voice. I started my exam first on her right side, introducing myself and then examined her contracted right arm, the goal being to get a blood pressure, as neurological abilities are very sensitive to blood pressure. She looked at me and would track me with voluntary facial and upper torso movements. I later moved to the left arm and attempted to release contractures there. In order to get significant relaxation of the arm to a degree necessary to obtain a blood pressure, I worked for approximately 35 minutes to release the contractures enough to get arm extension to approximately 140 degrees. During this time, the patient would track the mother or the father, depending on who was interacting with her. Interestingly, she appeared to respond to her mother or father by tone of voice. At one time, after working on her arm for approximately 20 minutes, and no further extension of the elbow was to be had, the father walked up and started speaking reassuringly to his daughter. The elbow immediately extended approximately another 20 degrees. This was during a time period that I had been talking with Ms. Schiavo, and the music was also running. Yet with neither the addition of the music nor my voice did the elbow extend. With the father coming to his daughter and speaking, she immediately extended the arm further. At other times, he would speak more sharply to her, and she would immediately tighten, and appear to lose her spot of visual focusing, and her expressions would change. At times during and immediately after this part of the exam, she would also appear to voluntarily move her right upper extremity."

Then there is this...
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/hammesfahr_interview_startling_revelations.html

"Dr. Hammesfahr pointed out that Terri was also tested with balloons to see if she would follow the balloon with her eyes and head when instructed to do so. Dr. Hammesfahr pointed out that Terri did follow the balloons when instructed, and that she did so, even though turning her head far enough to the side caused her pain. He pointed out that reflex actions are usually to avoid pain, but in Terri's case she turned her head into painful positions in order to follow the instructions of the physician testing her. Dr. Hammesfahr confirmed that several experts in neurology agree that Terri could improve, can improve and that everything that should be done for her is NOT being done. In fact, Dr. Hammesfahr confirmed that the isolation and deliberate removal of all stimulation from Terri is harming Terri, depriving her of the input and stimulation which would help her reach a higher cognitive level and ability. He stated that Terri should be getting much exposure to sights, sounds and other forms of rehabilitation.

Dr. Hammesfahr explained that Dr. Ronald Cranford (who testified for Michael Schiavo and George Felos' side - the right to die agenda) ... that Dr. Cranford was NOT a neurologist and was not an expert in the field. Also, that Dr. Cranford spent less than ONE hour with Terri totally! Yet the court relied on Dr. Cranford's testimony, rather than several other neurologists, including Dr. Hammesfahr. [The court was not gathering information in order to rule based on fact, it was simply following an agenda.]

Dr. Hammesfahr explained that as a physician and a person, he is outraged at the mistreatment Terri is receiving and that the denial of rehabilitation for Terri violates the standards of medical practice!"

This man is a world renowned EXPERT,and his diagnosis is completely opposite what the husbands doctor claims.

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One must remember that for the right amount of money, you can find an expert that will say pretty much what you want him to say. That's true for every issue.

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Echo that, Tico.

Cycloptichorn

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Dr. William Hammesfahr, a Florida neurologist who claims that he can help Terri Schiavo, has promoted his treatment plan on Christian Broadcasting Network's The 700 Club and has been cited by anti-abortion activist Randall Terry, a spokesman for Schiavo's parents, in newspaper articles. But questions have been raised about Hammesfahr, who was disciplined by the Florida Department of Health in 2003, and news outlets that have repeated Hammesfahr's claims have ignored those questions.

On the March 18 edition of The 700 Club, senior reporter Wendy Griffith described Hammesfahr as "a Nobel Prize nominee for his work in helping people with severe brain injuries" and said Hammesfahr claims that "about 40 percent of his patients are worse than Terri, yet have seen remarkable progress. He says Terri would do just as well." Hammesfahr appears on screen saying: "Oh, absolutely. She'll definitely be able to communicate. She'll probably be able to communicate verbally over the course of about two years of treatment with medication. And then as far as being able to use her arms and use her legs, she'll be able to use those. This woman is not in a coma. She's not in PVS [persistent vegetative state]. She's not that bad."

Terry touted Hammesfahr's proposed treatment in a March 21 Los Angeles Times article, saying that Hammesfahr would try to persuade state senators by using a recording that showed Schiavo responding to commands and attempting to speak. "Dr. Hammesfahr is going to tell them, 'I can treat this woman,' " Terry said. Terry also cited Hammesfahr's contentions in a February 25 St. Petersburg Times article. Neither article addresses Hammesfahr's controversial past.

In February 2003, the Florida Board of Medicine ruled that he violated state law by charging a patient for services that were not provided (Finding of Fact No. 71, PDF p. 32). The board fined Hammesfahr $2,000, placed him on probation for six months, and ordered him to pay approximately $52,000 in administrative costs and to perform 100 hours of community service. While the board also ruled that Hammesfahr's treatment of stroke patients, using a procedure he has claimed could help Terri Schiavo, was "not within the generally accepted standard of care" (Finding of Fact No. 55, PDF p. 33), it declined to rule that the treatment was harmful to his patients and noted that some patients improved after treatment.

An October 23, 2002, Tampa Tribune article reported that during an October 2002 hearing, George Felos, attorney for Schiavo's husband, Michael Schiavo, questioned Hammesfahr's qualifications, noting that he "charges cash for treatments and advertises himself as a nominee for a Nobel Prize based on a letter his congressman wrote to the Nobel committee." An October 25, 2003, St. Petersburg Times article noted that Greer, who presided over the hearing, called Hammesfahr a "self-promoter" who "offered no names, no case studies, no videos and no test results to support his claim" that he had treated patients worse off than Terri Schiavo.

In October 2001, a Florida appellate court ruled that five doctors should examine Terri Schiavo, all of whom testified at the October 2002 hearing, along with her attending physician. Hammesfahr was one of two doctors chosen by Terri Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler. Two others were chosen by Michael Schiavo, and one was appointed by the court. An October 17, 2002, Philadelphia Inquirer article noted that while Hammesfahr and the other doctor chosen by the Schindlers claimed that Terri Schiavo could be helped, her attending physician, the court-appointed physician, and the doctors selected by Michael Schiavo all stated that her condition would not improve.

In addition to his appearance on The 700 Club, Hammesfahr has discussed the case on the October 27, 2003, edition of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, during which he repeated his claim that Terri Schiavo is "not in a coma." Co-host Sean Hannity did not note Hammesfahr's disciplinary action by the Florida Board of Medicine, and he encouraged Hammesfahr to speculate on other aspects of the Schiavo case. A clip of Hammesfahr from his Fox News appearance was played on the November 9, 2003, edition of CBS' Sunday Morning.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220002

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Thanks for another unbiased article, Dookie.

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revel wrote:

I think is much more complicated than meets the eye.

yep. it sure is revel. which is why it is important that medical people make determinations in these cases regarding "what is, and what ain't" happening with the human body. and to go the next step, the credible determination should be made by doctors that are versed in the specifics of the illness. in other words, if you need work done on the house, you call a contractor. both electricians and plumbers are contractors. but if you had a leaky faucet, would you call an electrician?

much has been made that bill frist is a doctor, so "he knows" what he's talking about from a medical pov when making assertions on the senate floor regarding the schiavo case. but frist is a heart and lung transplant specialist. that in no way makes him an authority on the subject of brain injuries and such.

I also don't see what religion or political affliations have to do with it.

you must be joking revel. both affiliations have everything to do with the way this personal business has become a convention of media ho's

I feel sorrow for the parents.

as do i. mostly because i think their troubles are being exploited to the advantage of others. very very sad.

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Ticomaya wrote:

Thanks for another unbiased article, Dookie.

I posted the link to the Drs report from when he examined Terri.
Are you saying the Dr is a fraud and wrong,just because of the source of the link?
Thats pathetic,the fact that you would either ignore or discount facts about something just because you dont like the messenger.

Talk about the facts,and leave your bias towards anything conservative at home.

FYI,EVERY source on the web is biased,one way or another.
Should we discount everything on the internet?

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mysteryman wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
Thanks for another unbiased article, Dookie.

I posted the link to the Drs report from when he examined Terri.
Are you saying the Dr is a fraud and wrong,just because of the source of the link?
Thats pathetic,the fact that you would either ignore or discount facts about something just because you dont like the messenger.

Talk about the facts,and leave your bias towards anything conservative at home.

FYI,EVERY source on the web is biased,one way or another.
Should we discount everything on the internet?

Who are you complaining to, and why?

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Dookiestix wrote:

Dr. William Hammesfahr

dr. frankenstein, more like it.

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mysteryman wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
Thanks for another unbiased article, Dookie.

I posted the link to the Drs report from when he examined Terri.
Are you saying the Dr is a fraud and wrong,just because of the source of the link?
Thats pathetic,the fact that you would either ignore or discount facts about something just because you dont like the messenger.

Talk about the facts,and leave your bias towards anything conservative at home.

FYI,EVERY source on the web is biased,one way or another.
Should we discount everything on the internet?

The fact is that this Dr. and four others reported their findings to the court. The court did not find this Dr. to be compelling. Came damn near to accusing the Dr. of lying under oath, in fact.

This Dr. is preying on the hopes of the parents by telling them what they want to hear. (IMO)

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Ticomaya wrote:

mysteryman wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Thanks for another unbiased article, Dookie.

I posted the link to the Drs report from when he examined Terri.
Are you saying the Dr is a fraud and wrong,just because of the source of the link?
Thats pathetic,the fact that you would either ignore or discount facts about something just because you dont like the messenger.

Talk about the facts,and leave your bias towards anything conservative at home.

FYI,EVERY source on the web is biased,one way or another.
Should we discount everything on the internet?

Who are you complaining to, and why?

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DontTreadOnMe wrote:

revel wrote:
I think is much more complicated than meets the eye.

yep. it sure is revel. which is why it is important that medical people make determinations in these cases regarding "what is, and what ain't" happening with the human body. and to go the next step, the credible determination should be made by doctors that are versed in the specifics of the illness. in other words, if you need work done on the house, you call a contractor. both electricians and plumbers are contractors. but if you had a leaky faucet, would you call an electrician?

much has been made that bill frist is a doctor, so "he knows" what he's talking about from a medical pov when making assertions on the senate floor regarding the schiavo case. but frist is a heart and lung transplant specialist. that in no way makes him an authority on the subject of brain injuries and such.

I also don't see what religion or political affliations have to do with it.

you must be joking revel. both affiliations have everything to do with the way this personal business has become a convention of media ho's

I feel sorrow for the parents.

as do i. mostly because i think their troubles are being exploited to the advantage of others. very very sad.

But what do you all make of the video? Was it somehow staged or can she really respond? For me that is the bottom line.

On the other hand like someone said a while back, how is it humane to starve someone to death?

If it is like you say and the doctor is exploiting this out of some kind of weird religious/political affiliation and is fooling the parents, he should be shot. (Figuratively)

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