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If you think men should help decide if a woman gets an abortion, just shut up.

 
 
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 01:55 am
If you think men should help decide if a woman gets an abortion, just shut up.

Jessica Valenti column


Quote:
Every once in a while, someone – usually a man – will ask if men should “have a say” in a woman’s decisions about abortion. So sure, guys, yammer away all you want. It’s a free country.

But under no circumstances should men have any legal rights over women’s pregnancies.

Women aren’t children and don’t need permission slips from their husbands or male partners in order to exercise a legal right. Even the US supreme court says so.
(Not Alito, though – he thinks it would be perfectly constitutional to require that a married women inform her husband before getting an abortion.) There’s no spousal consent requirement in the UK, either. In fact, there are only a handful countries where and consent from the father is mandatory – including Syria, Saudi Arabia and Equatorial Guinea.

Plus, the potential for abuse should men have any sort of legal say over abortion would be overwhelming: men who want to control what women do with their bodies are generally not men who have much respect for women.

Forced pregnancy is one trademark strategy of an abusive partner - it’s so common that domestic violence experts call it “reproductive coercion”. Sabotaging women’s birth control methods, rape and controlling women’s ability to obtain an abortion are all ways that abusers try to control their victims. It’s a big enough problem that the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists wrote up a memo outlining the issue and potential ways doctors could intervene while maintaining the safety of their patients.

But even in relationships that are not abusive, giving men anything more than an opinion on abortion is dangerous and diminishes women’s personhood and autonomy.

When spousal consent laws were still legal in the United States, men could file injunctions to keep women from having abortions and sue their wives who had abortions without telling them. In 1988, a New York orthodontist, David Ostreicher, filed a suit against his wife and her doctors after she obtained an abortion without telling him. He told reporters at the time, “It’s a case of an outrageous act that a wife did against a husband.” And in 2002 – after the supreme court put this issue to bed – a Pennsylvania man tried to force his girlfriend (who had a protective order against him) to carry her pregnancy to term. That all sounds a like less like solutions for would-be fathers who wanted a chance to parent children, and more like vindictive men using the legal system to punish women who somehow thwarted them.

The legal standard also haven’t stopped legislators from trying to insert men’s supposed rights into women’s private medical decisions. In 2009, for example, an Ohio lawmaker introduced legislation that would mandate the biological father’s consent before a woman could obtain an abortion. Republican Rep. John Adams not only wanted women to get men’s consent for the procedure, but also to actually criminalize women who gave the name of a “false biological father” – and if a woman wasn’t sure who the father was, she wouldn’t be legally allowed to have an abortion.

There hasn’t yet been any concerted push from anti-abortion groups to change the laws on spousal or paternal consent , though at least one anti-choice organization has been testing the waters. It’s too obvious a violation, and too explicitly paternalistic, to play well with the public or their allies in government.

But it’s important that we clearly set the terms of this debate way before some enterprising anti-choicer resurrects the idea. Yes, men can have an opinion about abortion. No, they cannot force, coerce, or legally stop a woman from obtaining one. Unless, I guess, you’re in Congress.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/11/men-help-decide-woman-abortion
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 3,099 • Replies: 144

 
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Region Philbis
 
  8  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 10:27 am
@oralloy,

we've got plenty of rights.

but we should not have the right to tell a woman what to do with her body...
coluber2001
 
  4  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 10:27 am
It wasn't that long ago that people thought that women had no role in the creation of a child except as a place for the man's  planted seed to grow. It was as if the woman was nothing more than soil to plant a seed,  to wit, treating the woman as nothing but dirt. A woman aborting a fetus was the same thing as a soil rejecting the seed, that is, unthinkable. From the point of view of the man in these conditions, it was contemptible.
This type of thinking is anachronistic at the very least, but still exists to some degree in the patriarchal consciousness of troglodytes.

The population of the planet has changed, and we're no longer trying to increase the population, but we're trying to slow down the population increase. Overpopulation is a serious matter, and there is no collective agreement as to how to deal with overpopulation.

Let me tell you the story of the red kangaroo in Australia. It seems appropriate. The red kangaroo lives in some of the harshest, most arid areas of Australia. It's survival is always on the edge, and individuals make difficult choices in especially dry years. If a mother is carrying a joey in her pouch and she's having a difficult time even feeding herself and getting adequate water, she'll throw the joey onto the ground to die. The mother can't feed both herself and her young, so the choice is either both die or the mother survives to possibly reproduce another year.

0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 11:24 am
@Region Philbis,
Region Philbis wrote:
we've got plenty of rights.
So what happens if a pregnancy happens and a guy decides that he isn't ready to be a father? Is he allowed to opt out of fatherhood if the woman unilaterally decides to have the child even after he states that he isn't interested?

Region Philbis wrote:
but we should not have the right to tell a woman what to do with her body...
That's a common leftist slogan, but it's sophistry. If we're going to have a paradigm where someone's decisions over whether or not to become a parent are to be directed internally within their own body, then why doesn't the federal government spend any money on research for a male birth control pill?

One great selling point for the pro-life movement is that they are the only game in town when it comes to gender equality. They would deny options to both genders equally.
Setanta
 
  5  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 12:23 pm
The holy rollers deny the right to abortion, they also deny any responsibility for the child if a woman follows their advice and carries a foetus to term. They're good at bombings, assassinations and ranting protesters--they're no damned good at all once the child is born.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  3  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 05:38 pm
Max....that question I asked you would be on topic here. Maybe you'll answer.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  3  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 05:41 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Region Philbis wrote:
we've got plenty of rights.
So what happens if a pregnancy happens and a guy decides that he isn't ready to be a father? Is he allowed to opt out of fatherhood if the woman unilaterally decides to have the child even after he states that he isn't interested?


Yes, he does have that option. It happens ALL THE TIME.

The woman has that option too. They can drop their child off at any police station, hospital, fire station, etc NO QUESTIONS ASKED and opt out of motherhood (even after the baby is born).
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 05:49 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:
Yes, he does have that option. It happens ALL THE TIME.
That is incorrect. If the woman decides to have the child even though the guy is not interested, the guy is not given an opt-out and is forced by the government to pay child support.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  5  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 06:00 pm
Boo-hoo . . . actions have consequences. What a whiny response. Any man who doesn't want to face those consequences can keep it in his pants, or take responsibility for birth control.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 06:30 pm
@Setanta,
If women don't want to have a child, they can keep their pants zipped up too. So there is no need for women to have access to abortions or birth control pills.
Setanta
 
  6  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 07:46 pm
Yeah, the holy rollers are down with that--no sex education, no contraception and no abortion. But they don't rule the world, and, increasingly, neither do patriarchal, elitist white men. Abortion is a reality. I remember the days before abortion was legal. There will be a demand for abortions whether or not it is legal, and when it's not, women die.

Meanwhile, arrogant men continue to act as though they can do as they will without consequences.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 08:10 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
and when it's not, women die.
Women will still have the option of keeping their pants zipped up.

And the option of taking responsibility for their actions and raising the child that they conceived.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 08:12 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
or take responsibility for birth control.
I'm curious. How does a man take responsibility for birth control? Has there been a big medical push that I am unaware of to develop a male birth control pill?

Is the idea that the man should take charge of the woman's use of birth control?

I'm not exactly sure how the man assumes responsibility for birth control in this equation.
maporsche
 
  3  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 08:13 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

I'm not exactly sure how the man assumes responsibility for birth control in this equation.



For someone with a high IQ (but apparently no understanding of sex).....

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


Or maybe you prefer cucumbers...

https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/how-to-put-a-condom-on-1502188148.jpg?crop=1.00xw:1.00xh;0,0&resize=768:*
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 08:16 pm
@maporsche,
So there is no need for abortions and birth control. All a woman needs to do is insist that sex always be done with a condom.
maporsche
 
  5  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 08:19 pm
@oralloy,
Those sex-ed classes must have been of the abstinence-only variety in your health class...
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 08:24 pm
@maporsche,
Thumbs up for making me remember something funny from my youth.
+1
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  5  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 08:29 pm
If men are keeping their pants zipped up, that can go a long way to solving the problem. As Maporche points out, there are condoms, and in an age of potentially lethal venereal diseases, that's a good idea without the contraception component
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2018 08:41 pm
@Setanta,
So there is no need for women to have access to abortions and birth control pills.

Men and women can just keep their pants zipped up or use condoms.
 

 
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