15
   

Kids in cages; how does anyone defend this

 
 
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2018 01:14 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I am not sure ... but it seems like you are suggesting that Central American migrant are exploiting Americans. If so, you are more ridiculous than Layman.


Naw, they just want free housing, free food, free medical care, etc., eh, Max? They're not "exploiting" anybody by demanding free ****. Bums do that on the street every day. We don't have to give it to them. It's the cheese-eaters supporting them who are trying to exploit the American people.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2018 08:51 pm
Imported from another thread:

This is from the left-wing Alter-net on June 26, 2014:

Quote:
Obama Separated 72,000 Parents from Their Children by 2014

Washington’s cruel immigration policies are separating tens of thousands of parents from their children who are living here perfectly legally. According to a report obtained by the Huffington Post, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) last year carried out more than 72,000 deportations of parents who said they had U.S.-born children.

This startlingly high number comes from reports sent by ICE in April to the Senate Appropriations Committee and the Judiciary Committee, which lay out 72,410 removals of immigrants who said they had one or more U.S.-born children in 2013. Children born in the U.S. are automatically granted citizenship, but millions of them (approximately 4.5 million according to a report by Human Impact Partners), have at least one, sometimes two parents who are undocumented. The reports emerge precisely at a time when President Obama faces increasing pressure to change immigration policies in order to keep families together, and the House completely stalls immigration reform.

http://www.independentsentinel.com/obama-separated-72000-parents-from-their-children-by-2014/

Hmmmm...72,410 cases of ripping parents away from their children, eh? That's quite a few, actually. This was known 4 years ago. Why wasn't there nationwide outrage, then, I wonder?

Well, ya see, it's kinda like this here: It's all about the children. But, then again, they aint the only thing that matters. You have to think of higher moral duties, such as maintaining loyalty to your party.

But not Max, I betcha. He probably chained himself to the White House fence, poured gasoline all over himself, and threatened to light himself up if Obama didn't stop that **** RIGHT NOW.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 02:30 pm
@livinglava,
I generally agree with you about the virtues and benefits of immigration. We have been skimming the best and most motivated people from other, then troubled, countries for most of our history, and this indeed has been a significant factor in our success as a nation. Interestingly, the criticisms we hear about contemporary immigrants are much the same as those once levied against the Irish, Jewish, Polish and other immigrants, who flooded the country (under a then well managed screening and control system) in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

I believe the issue underlying the current tumult over immigration that has been going on for several decades started when first failed to recognize and create ( or continue) a vehicle for seasonal agricultural workers from Mexico, and, later, started ignoring enforcement of existing law as part of a political game, in which Democrats positioned themselves as the champions of potential new voters, and Republicans lacked the political courage to match the law to our current policies and needs. Failure to enforce existing law threatens all law and the integrity of our institutions. Presidents began to issue executive orders directing non enforcement of some aspects of the law in direct contradiction of our constitution. In the midst of the ongoing Legislative irresponsibility on the matter, no corrective actions were taken - the checks and balances built into our constitution ceased to work on this issue. This, in my view, is a serious problem that, left unattended, will continue to undermine our constitution and reward the irresponsible behavior of our elected officials.

In the last three decades the breakdown of governments in Central America (chiefly in El Salvador, Honduras and, to a lesser extent, Guatemala) created a flood of immigrants who quickly learned how to manipulate programs for asylum, enacted to aid the victims of political oppression. In the continuing impasse over issues involving immigration, this too was left unaddressed by our feckless Legislators. Various Presidents , Including Bush II, made half-hearted efforts to address the underlying issues, but quickly backed off when the politics became risky. Meanwhile under Obama the Democrats continued to exploit this sorry issue for their perceived political gain and, as President, Obama hit a new low in willful non-enforcement of law and the unconstitutional use of Executive orders to, in effect, amend it.

Recently the Government of Mexico has decided to relax the pressures for immigration from Central America on its southern border, by permitting the transit of migrants from that region, often managed by coyotes and Drug Cartels, to our unenforced Border, adding to the problem. There are many threats to basic human rights here, but most come, not from our government's belated attempts to control our southern border, but rather from the coyotes and cartels that prey viciously on of the Central American migrants themselves.

This chaotic situation benefits only the coyotes and cartels that exploit it. Both the Mexican and U.S. governments are at fault for failing to enforce law and public safety.

Separately we sorely need to enforce our law and restore the integrity of our government and the integrity of our constitution on this issue.
maporsche
 
  4  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 04:06 pm
@georgeob1,
I’m confused George...I keep hearing that Trump is only doing what Obama did but you’re saying that Obama didn’t do anything (despite what the numbers suggest).

Which is it?
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 04:40 pm
@georgeob1,
Congress is just following the will of the American Public (as it should). The recent American presidents have likewise been responding to the American public. DACA (which you seem to be disparaging) enjoys wide public support, as does border enforcement, as does amnesty. Americans are deeply conflicted about immigration... and that is why our government has been unable to come up with a coherent policy.

Half of Americans think that the most important parts of immigration policy are compassion, family and racial fairness (as defined by people who agree with me). The other half of Americans think that immigration policy should focus on security, law enforcement and the protection of American culture (as defined by people who disagree with me).

If you look at polls, there is a significant portion of America that is confused... giving contradictory answers based on how the poll question is asked.

When you focus on law enforcement over compassion, you are missing half of the picture. What you call a "willful non-enforcement of the law" has wide support from a majority of Americans. The fact that Obama acted to protect undocumented immigrants was not a surprise. We elected him... and most Americans are happy with his decision to pass DACA.

Trump was also elected and likewise what he is doing is no surprise. But that is the real reason that we haven't had any resolution for the conflict over immigration policy. The American public is deeply divided and conflicted with itself.

You focus only on law enforcement and security... you side of the political chasm that exists in our country. You are ignoring the other side of the issue; compassion, economic opportunity and racial justice.

Trump's latest policy on immigration was soundly rejected by the majority of American public. We will see how the midterms go.

BTW: You seem to have a very odd understanding of the term "checks and balances".


georgeob1
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 05:08 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Congress is just following the will of the American Public (as it should). The recent American presidents have likewise been responding to the American public. DACA (which you seem to be disparaging) enjoys wide public support, as does border enforcement, as does amnesty. Americans are deeply conflicted about immigration... and that is why our government has been unable to come up with a coherent policy.
President Obama certainly got himself a lot of political support in signing an unconstitutional executive order forbidding the enforcement of immigration law in the case of the children of illegal residents. He and his Democrat Majority (during his first term) made no effort whatever to amend the law in the prescribed constitutional manner. This self-serving and flagrant violation of the constitution will only breed more of it and undermine our system of government. We will be dealing with The political legacy of all this is affecting us now with the collapse of rational order in our Congress, and we will be dealing with that for a long time.

maxdancona wrote:

Half of Americans think that the most important parts of immigration policy are compassion, family and racial fairness (as defined by people who agree with me). The other half of Americans think that immigration policy should focus on security, law enforcement and the protection of American culture (as defined by people who disagree with me).
That is an inaccurate, self-serving and rather fatuous definition of the current political divide. There is nothing wrong or uncompassionate about protecting our national security and system of government. It is entirely possible to protect family values and fairness AND to comply with our law as written.

While the collapse of the government and social order in El Salvador Honduras, and increasingly now in Nicaragua and Venezuela, certainly creates a great deal of human suffering, that is not our doing or responsibility. The real solution to these evils is to be found in the governance of these countries themselves, and any lasting solution must come from that. If we simply make ourselves the dumping ground for the disaffected of the world, we will be quickly overwhelmed; will dilute the forces for needed reform in those countries; and in the end lose our own country --hardly a compassionate outcome for either the American people or those of the other countries involved.

Some limits and procedures are required, and you haven't addressed that fact at all, arguing only for your version of politically correct compassion.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 05:21 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
If we simply make ourselves the dumping ground for the disaffected of the world, we will be quickly overwhelmed; will dilute the forces for needed reform in those countries; and in the end lose our own country


WOW OH WOW!

That is what you think would happen? Seriously?

Quickly overwhelmed? How quickly really? Like days or weeks? How long until the infestation (Trumps term, not mine) overwhelms our vast and populous country?

Dilute the forces...? The 3 Central America countries you listed have a total population of 20.794 million. When do you think those countries would completely empty out so I can pick up some cheap beachfront property?? I'd be surprised if we'd see their populations decrease at all if the US had a completely open border.

...lose our own country Hahahaha...this is the funniest and saddest part of what you said. You think a few hundred thousand immigrants coming to America from countries where they had to struggle to survive and fight for everything they've earned and sacrificed much in the struggle to come to America and make a better life for them and their families (here or abroad) is going to somehow destroy America's spirit??? Hell George, I'd rather have 1000 immigrants than some of these basement dwelling videogame playing man-children I interview for jobs...despite my derision, I don't care if these people play video games their whole lives, I just think that the immigrant more embodies the American dream than MANY Americans do. Many.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 05:26 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
That is an inaccurate, self-serving and rather fatuous definition of the current political divide.


Really George? You are being ridiculously partisan.

I am trying to explain to you why a large proportion of Americans support DACA and other measures that would make life easier for undocumented immigrants. Instead of trying to understand both sides of the issue... you keep ranting about how we are violating the constitution and undermining our constitution.

You are being ridiculous.

Do I have to explain civics 101 to you? In a couple of months we have elections. As an American citizen, I am going to vote for representatives in Congress. I expect them to vote for DACA whenever possible. I expect the people I help to elect to oppose Trump's immigration policy whenever possible.

And my representatives will likely block your representatives (assuming you live in a district that supports your political views). And the gridlock will largely continue because that is what the American people are voting for. Congress members are supposed to vote in a way that represents their constutents, that's how the system is designed.

Likewise we have a Supreme Court that is mandated by the Constitution to decide what is constitutional or not. If you disagree with the Supreme Court about what is constitutional, by definition they are right, and you are wrong.

I accept your right to have an opinion about what is happening with immigration and what should be done about it. I disagree with you, but I would never suggest that you have no right to have this opinion (in fact I am trying to understand it better).

It is ridiculous for you to deny that a large number of Americans disagree with you.

maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 05:30 pm
@maxdancona,
BTW, last week Trump's approval rating (Gallup) dropped 5 points. That is a pretty significant drop for a single week.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 05:35 pm
Question for people on the right:

In the next 25-50 years, America is projected to become a majority-minority country. White, non-hispanic people will be less than 50% of the population in America for the first time in its history.

Is this a good thing, a bad thing, or nothing...?
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 05:38 pm
@maxdancona,
You appear to be easily confused. I made no claim or assertion of any kind about the partisan divide among our citizen ( and non citizen) voters. I did refer to a partisan divide in our Congress that has been exacerbated by this prolonged evasion of the defects in our immigration process, and unwillingness to face the political consequences of fixing them.

Few nations in the world are as willing to accept immigrants as the United States. That doesn't mean we must always accept all candidate immigrants from everywhere. You have persistently failed to address the necessary complications resulting from some limits and process for immigrants. Until you do this no one is likely to take your arguments seriously.

Certainly Mexico has amply demonstrated its unwillingness to accept the unfortunate people of Central America into its society. What does that tell you ? How do you explain that?
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 05:38 pm
@maporsche,
Nothing to me. I'll be dead.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 05:40 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

You have persistently failed to address the necessary complications resulting from some limits and process for immigrants. Until you do this no one is likely to take your arguments seriously.


Exactly, George.
maporsche
 
  3  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 05:41 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
You have persistently failed to address the necessary complications resulting from some limits and process for immigrants. Until you do this no one is likely to take your arguments seriously.


How about removing the limits? How about simplifying the process? How about screening for violence, etc and then offering them a welcoming greeting and a pat on the back with a goodie bag including how to become a citizen?
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 05:44 pm
@layman,
You could raise the number of immigrant who could LEGALLY immigrate each year to 20 million, and Max would probably still be against turning away anyone who wanted to just walk in illegally, anytime.

He truly wants open borders. Ma, too.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 05:44 pm
@georgeob1,
You are right that on this thread I am not addressing what limits or procedures would be reasonable. That is not what is about. I would argue with you about your claim that the upheaval in countries like Nicaragua are "not our fault". But, again... that is not the topic of this thread.

This thread is about the current Trump policy. A policy that many Americans, and likely a majority of us, find excessively cruel and extreme. Rejecting that policy doesn't mean "open borders"... we aren't forced to choose between two extremes. There is a lot of room for sensible policies in the middle.
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 05:49 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

How about removing the limits? How about simplifying the process? How about screening for violence, etc and then offering them a welcoming greeting and a pat on the back with a goodie bag including how to become a citizen?


How about not?
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 05:50 pm
@georgeob1,
I take issue with your claim that policies enacted by elected politicians, supported by the vast majority of the American people and allowed by the Supreme court is undermining our system of government.

That is our system of government.

The rest of it is just a disagreement between different political factions in the American electorate. That is the reason we have elections.

You have a right to your opinions about this issue (and I have the right to disagree). But your claims about how our government works are ridiculous. Representatives represent the American people... I would be very upset if Elizabeth Warren didn't vote to block Trump's version of immigration enforcement. Her job is to represent me-- your views about the issue or what's good for the country or how things should work are irrelevant.

Whether you take my arguments seriously here or not is irrelevant. Obviously (according to polls and election results) a significant proportion of American voters is taking these arguments very seriously. If they weren't, Congress would pass your vision of immigration policy pretty quickly.

In November we vote. That's how our system of government works.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 06:01 pm
You really should quit presuming to speak for the "American People," eh, Max?

the ultra liberal NPR wrote:
Given the choice between "open borders" — a position that no mainstream political leaders are proposing — and a "secure border," which is current U.S. policy, 79 percent of Americans agreed that the U.S. needs "secure borders."

It is true that 68 percent of Americans said they oppose "the lottery that randomly picks 50,000 people to enter the U.S. each year for greater diversity." And in fact, even more (79 percent) favored merit-based immigration over family-based migration, based on a question asking whether "immigration priority for those coming to the U.S. should be based on a person's ability to contribute to America as measured by their education and skills or based on a person having relatives in the U.S."
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 06:15 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

You really should quit presuming to speak for the "American People," eh, Max?

the ultra liberal NPR wrote:
Given the choice between "open borders" — a position that no mainstream political leaders are proposing — and a "secure border," which is current U.S. policy, 79 percent of Americans agreed that the U.S. needs "secure borders."

It is true that 68 percent of Americans said they oppose "the lottery that randomly picks 50,000 people to enter the U.S. each year for greater diversity." And in fact, even more (79 percent) favored merit-based immigration over family-based migration, based on a question asking whether "immigration priority for those coming to the U.S. should be based on a person's ability to contribute to America as measured by their education and skills or based on a person having relatives in the U.S."



Layman,

Given how extreme (and silly) your positions are, you are surprisingly helpful at times. This is exactly what I am talking about.

George,

Layman provides an example of what I am talking about. You can be opposed to both the diversity lottery and Trump's "zero tolerance" policy. And they apparently are. Americans aren't forced to choose between two extremes, there are lots of little policy choices to make.

The fact that an American opposes Trumps policy doesn't mean that they support "open borders". You (and Layman) seem to be arguing the extremes. These issues will be decided, or not decided, by elected officials based on what their constituents want.

Americans want border security, and they want compassion. They want enforcement and they want a pathway to citizenship for people here illegally. This simplistic, one-sided view you are pushing doesn't reflect reality.
 

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