4
   

Is the US concerned about nerve gas attacks in Great Britain?

 
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 7 Jul, 2018 06:09 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Collateral damage is worse.
No it isn't.

cicerone imposter wrote:
Killing innocent civilians is a crime against humanity.
Only if it is a large number of civilians that are deliberately targeted.

Quote:
Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
Do you have any evidence that we launched such an attack?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 02:26 am
Quote:
A police officer tested for possible exposure to a nerve agent in Salisbury has been given the medical all-clear.

The Wiltshire Police officer was treated a short distance from Amesbury where Dawn Sturgess, 44, and her partner Charlie Rowley, 45, fell ill last Saturday.

They remain in a critical condition after being exposed to Novichok by handling a contaminated item.

The officer was cleared at Salisbury District Hospital.

Wiltshire Police confirmed that one of their officers had been "seeking medical advice" at the hospital as part of "a precautionary measure".

A Salisbury District Hospital spokesperson said: "There is nothing to suggest there is any wider risk to anyone at the hospital."

The spokesperson added that the hospital had "the ability to carry out the appropriate specialist tests.

"Salisbury District Hospital has seen a number of members of the public who have come to the hospital with health concerns since this incident started and none have required any treatment.

"We would like to reiterate the advice from Public Health England (PHE) that the risk to the wider public remains low."

The emergency department at the Great Western Hospital in Swindon where the officer initially attended had been closed but reopened at about 22:00 BST.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44754562
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 06:34 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Sajid Javid says government has no current plans to impose fresh sanctions on Russia
[...]
“We know back in March that was the Russians. We know it was a barbaric, inhuman act by the Russian state. Again, for this particular incident, we need to learn more and let the police do their work.” ...

During a walkabout in Salisbury, he reassured residents that detectives were working hard to understand how two people came to be struck down by novichok four months after the Skripals were poisoned.

There is some frustration amongst Wiltshire residents that the authorities have not been clearer about both incidents. Asked if secrecy had been prioritised over public safety, Javid said: “No, I think the advice both from the first incident and now was absolutely correct.

“There is no evidence at this point that the two individuals hurt by this incident visited any of the areas that the Skripals visited. That said, I think everyone would want to listen to the advice of the professionals and make sure we take some precautions.”
[...]
The Guardian learned on Friday that an item contaminated with novichok, which left Sturgess and Rowley fighting for their lives, has not been recovered.

Sources with knowledge of the investigation, being led by Scotland Yard’s counter-terrorism unit, confirmed swabbing skin from Sturgess and Rowley had proved crucial in determining they had been poisoned by novichok after handling it.

Scientists examined swabs taken from them as they lay critically ill in Salisbury district hospital. The greatest concentration of novichok was found on their hands. That led scientists at Porton Down to tell investigators the couple had handled whatever the contaminated item was.

Sturgess and Rowley were not targeted for assassination, police believe, and their contamination is thought to be a result of the recklessness of whoever possessed the novichok.
[...]
On Sunday, Salisbury was busy with visitors and shoppers. At St Thomas’s church in the city centre, rose petals gathered from residents’ gardens were scattered across the city from the tower to celebrate their patron saint’s day. Parishioners said the gesture was all the more poignant in these difficult times.

Despite the insistence by Public Health England that based on the small number of casualties, the risk to the public is low, some people were staying away. ...
Observer/The Guardian: UK 'won't jump to conclusions' after new novichok poisoning

0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 11:54 am
It appears that cooler heads in Britain are beginning to absorb and analyze the data on this latest incident. That's good. After now several murders of Russian exiles living in the UK, very likely carried out by Russian security services or their agents, the initial excitement over this incident is understandable.

The issue of the indicated behavior of the Russian government in these matters, and the underlying question of the future of relations between the Western countries and Russia - and the mutual interests of the parties involved - all remain unresolved. The fact is that continental Europe depends on Russia for its supply of natural gas and , to a lesser extent, oil. Economic and cultural relations between Russia and Germany are particularly extensive.

Many here claim that the instant imposition of sanctions against Russia by the United Stated is in order. However the continuing absence of any retaliatory actions by any of the European Powers, most likely to be affected by the supposed Russian menace, suggests there is more to the question than has been acknowledged.

It seems clear to me that the Baltic States and Poland are both the most threatened and aroused European States regarding this question, while the others, particularly Germany, remain more interested in their continuing economic relations with Russia. There is a case to be made for both of these viewpoints.

History and proximity provide ample reasons for both the Baltic states and Poland to fear threats to their independence from both Russia and Germany, (the latter now coming mostly from the German dominated EU).

The added matter of the atrophy of the military capabilities of the major European powers very likely suggests to the Baltic states and Poland that Europe as a whole is betting on a long range economical and political accommodation with Russia, and they may be the victims in this process - a very reasonable source of concern on their parts.

History is not over, and the orientation of Russia towards its European neighbors has remained an unresolved issue since the end of WWI. Increasingly it appears (to me, at least) that the notion that the EU would somehow bring an end to the long-standing regional, cultural and economic differences among the nations of Europe is a bit naïve. The unfolding of recent events in Europe attests to this.

Intended or not, I believe President Trump's current approach to these matters does indeed address the real underlying issues (as opposed to the superficial ones gathering all the media attention). How well and wisely he may influence the various participants remains to be seen. Interesting times.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 12:36 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
History and proximity provide ample reasons for both the Baltic states and Poland to fear threats to their independence from both Russia and Germany, (the latter now coming mostly from the German dominated EU).
Latvia indeed had a so-called "German period" (from 1185 until 1561).
The founder of my hometown, Bernhard II von Lippe, became abbot of Dünamünde monastery ("Daugavgrīva Alike tobbey") around 1210 and bishop of Selonia ("Selonia") in 1218.


I always like to tell: he received the episcopal consecration from Otto II, bishop of Utrecht, Bernhard IV, bishop of Paderborn and Gerhard II, archbishop of Bremen and Hamburg - all the three being his sons.
(According to legends, Bernhard is said to have done a great deal of injustice to his subjects during his reign by robbery and burning. For this God has punished him with lameness on both feet. Repentant Bernard then humbly went into the care of Cistercian monks and became a Cistercian monk himself because of his healing.
Actually, he had founded that monastery [Marienfeld] years before, after he was pardoned by emperor [he was a close follower of the Welfs, even after they were defeated], and he later became a monk because he was too ill to govern his county.)
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 12:47 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Thanks. Interesting. 1561 was a long time ago. Indeed it was the time of the dominance of the Hanseatic League which united the mercantile cities of North Germany, Denmark, and the Baltic states. A very different world in which Russia remained a somewhat remote threat ; the unification of the German States had not yet occurred; and the League itself represented one of the leading economic forces of its time.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 12:54 pm
@georgeob1,
Actually, the Baltic States (part of them) were the territory of the Order of Brothers of the German House of Saint Mary in Jerusalem, commonly known as Teutonic Order. (wikipedia map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Teutonic_Order_1410.png/1024px-Teutonic_Order_1410.png)

The unification of the German States didn't happen until 1871 (and it was only in 1913, that there was a German nationality).

Hanse and the Baltic countries: [ur=]http://www.balticconnections.net/index.cfm?article=The+Hanseatic+Era]The Hanseatic Era[/url]
Blickers
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 12:59 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote georgeob1:
Quote:
The issue of the indicated behavior of the Russian government in these matters, and the underlying question of the future of relations between the Western countries and Russia - and the mutual interests of the parties involved - all remain unresolved. The fact is that continental Europe depends on Russia for its supply of natural gas and , to a lesser extent, oil.

george, why are you parroting the talking points of all the Russian trolls on YouTube? Since Russia annexed Ukrainian Crimea and directed the rebellion in Eastern Ukraine in 2014, the EU has slapped a bunch of sanctions against Russia which has cratered the already-anemic Russian economy.

Those sanctions are still in effect.

Check the chart of the Russian ruble vs the dollar since the EU sanctions in 2014:

https://i.imgur.com/3H55Kda.jpg

Since those EU sanctions in 2014, all the Russian trolls on YouTube have been doing is screaming GAS GAS GAS and how Europe is going to freeze over every winter because of their sanctions against Russia. And in four winters it hasn't happened yet.

Yet here you are, beating the same stupid drum the Russian trolls have been beating to no visible effect since 2014. Give it up-Russia has NO economic power over the far wealthier EU at all.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 01:03 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
True enough. However, as I noted the Hanseatic League was then a force that united them in shared economic and cultural interests.

Alternatively, perhaps you are suggesting that Germany then dominated the Baltic States, and that is the natural order of things.

In either event the case of Poland is profoundly based in the subsequent history of the region. I believe many in Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia might argue the same. On a trip to Lithuania ( a very sad place in my view) I was struck by their fairly bitter memories of Russian deportations and massacres during WWII.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 01:06 pm
@Blickers,
You've posted this before. Nothing new here. US sanctions against Russia also followed Putin's Crimean and Ukrainian adventures. My reference was to a more recent action, and on that I am correct.
Blickers
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 01:10 pm
@georgeob1,
So in other words, the US and EU combined to exert sanctions which crippled the Russian economy and which are still in effect. So you feel that because the UK or EU has not done even more than continue to cripple the Russian economy, that is an indication of a thaw?

What more do you expect?
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 01:12 pm
@Blickers,
I really can't follow your argument here. I made no reference to a "thaw" of any kind by any nation.

What is your issue?
Blickers
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 01:33 pm
@georgeob1,
The issue is the poisoning by the Russians or proxies of people on British soil. On that, you said,
Quote:
The issue of the indicated behavior of the Russian government in these matters, and the underlying question of the future of relations between the Western countries and Russia - and the mutual interests of the parties involved - all remain unresolved. The fact is that continental Europe depends on Russia for its supply of natural gas and , to a lesser extent, oil.
Well, as continental Europe has proved since 2014, it can get along without Russian gas or oil quite well. As the EU and US sanctions in response to Russia's actions in Ukraine, instituted in 2014 and still in effect, have cratered Russia's economy, I don't think that the UK necessarily has to do more in response to the poisonings, at least in the economic sphere.

The UK, EU and US are already sticking it to Russia, I would imagine that they plan to continue doing so. Except for Trump, of course, he's all anti-sanctions. But he hasn't been able to reverse much, and may not be able to in the time he has left in office.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 01:45 pm
@Blickers,
You are mistaken. I did not assert that the paragraph of mine you quoted directly addressed the supposed recent poisonings, as you wrote.

I rather clearly identified it as an issue also before the interested parties and one that must be addressed with it. I believe the truth of that proposition is obvious.

It appears you are trying to contrive some anti Trump argument here. OK by me, but you'll have to do better than that to keep my attention.
Blickers
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 02:59 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote georgeob1:
Quote:
You are mistaken. I did not assert that the paragraph of mine you quoted directly addressed the supposed recent poisonings, as you wrote.

I rather clearly identified it as an issue also before the interested parties and one that must be addressed with it. I believe the truth of that proposition is obvious.

The sentence you posted preceding your quote was, "After now several murders of Russian exiles living in the UK, very likely carried out by Russian security services or their agents, the initial excitement over this incident is understandable.". It therefore becomes quite clear that you were talking about the Russian poisonings in the UK. This conclusion is amplified by the fact that the title of this thread is: "Is the US concerned about nerve gas attacks in Great Britain?"

While it remains to be seen if more action will be taken by the UK or the EU against Russia as a result of the poisonings, it might well be that everybody will decide to simply continue sticking it to the Russians economically. The EU has over ten times the GDP of Russia, and in a world of ever expanding GDP, the more Russia remains economically stagnant, the more power it loses. At any rate, even now Russia has no huge economic hold over the EU, and what little hold it has will get smaller and smaller as time goes by. Unless drastic changes are made in Russia.
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 03:08 pm
@Blickers,
Quote:
At any rate, even now Russia has no huge economic hold over the EU, and what little hold it has will get smaller and smaller as time goes by. Unless drastic changes are made in Russia.


Really, all the oil Russia sells to them has nothing to do with economics?
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 03:10 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

You are mistaken. I did not assert that the paragraph of mine you quoted directly addressed the supposed recent poisonings, as you wrote.

I rather clearly identified it as an issue also before the interested parties and one that must be addressed with it. I believe the truth of that proposition is obvious.

It appears you are trying to contrive some anti Trump argument here. OK by me, but you'll have to do better than that to keep my attention.


I reread Blickers post 3 times and he didn't say your quote directly addressed the 'supposed' (curious choice of word) recent poisoning. You may have just been a tad miffed he presented additional information and misread the remark.

He isn't accusing you of ignoring the poisonings, he's pointing out the situation is far too complex to underestimate or over-simplify. Well, at least that's how I read it, not sure if blickers will agree with how I interpret his post...I'm not his spokesperson.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 03:13 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

The sentence you posted preceding your quote was, "After now several murders of Russian exiles living in the UK, very likely carried out by Russian security services or their agents, the initial excitement over this incident is understandable.". It therefore becomes quite clear that you were talking about the Russian poisonings in the UK. This conclusion is amplified by the fact that the title of this thread is: "Is the US concerned about nerve gas attacks in Great Britain?"


The proximity of statements has no necessary connection to their meaning. I clearly explained my meaning in this matter. It appears to me you were merely looking for an opportunity to reuse an old post, this time with little connection to the cited elements of the post you referenced.
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 03:14 pm
@glitterbag,
Quote:
.I'm not his spokesperson.

You are nobody's.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2018 03:16 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
looking for an opportunity to reuse an old post, this time with little connection to the post you were referencing.

Conflation. A tactic.
0 Replies
 
 

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