SHARE YOUR CITY'S PEACE RALLY HERE.

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It has nothing to do with 'feeling good' Tres. It has to do with continuing to speak out, to be heard, to forward ideas and principles which one feels the absence of will be detrimental to the community.

Sorry, Bernie, but we both know that may be true for some, but for others, these protests have just replaced keggers and raves. "Look at me! See how much I care? Hey, do you care too? Wow, we are so much better than all those morons who don't care!" Rolling Eyes

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To put it another way, Blatham, it has to do with being a responsible citizen.

Because only those who agree with us are responsible citizens. Rolling Eyes

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No, Tres -- Those who hold the government up to constant scrutiny are responsible citizens -- particularly when lives and/or freedoms could be lost. If you feel safe, that's fine. If we stir you up to reexamine our government, that's even better!

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"But there are many, some here, who conceive of responsible citizenship as adherence to authority and as unanimity of voice."

Blatham, the fellow pictured to the left and quoted below was excoriated over and over again, described as a nut, a useless firebrand. I relish his style and accomplishments -- he was instrumental in the abolition of slavery. It was not (then) a "noble" cause, but one which nearly cost him his life and livelihood, friendships, position in the community -- he was seriously hated by many and threatened by southern landowners who wanted to off him. I put him there not only because we share convictions and attitudes (and dna), but as a reminder that "crazy" anti-government people often turn out to be on the right side.

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Harrisburg PA--Day Of Disgust
Just got in from the Harrisburg rally, and, despite the rain, we had a good crowd. Good media coverage as well.

We also had a representative from the National Lawyers Guild to make sure the cops didn't give us any trouble and a pro-war protestor who was actually civil! He even said that he realizes that we have a right to be here.

Next rally in the PA Capital is Saturday!

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Tartarin wrote:

No, Tres -- Those who hold the government up to constant scrutiny are responsible citizens -- particularly when lives and/or freedoms could be lost. If you feel safe, that's fine. If we stir you up to reexamine our government, that's even better!

Yet you fail to see the absolute arrogance inherent in the notion that I need you to "stir [me] up to reexamine our government". The reality your elitist view precludes you from recognizing is that I and others examine our government and these issues every bit as vigorously as you (in fact, I would argue that I and others do so far more and in far more meaningful ways). We have simply reached a different conclusion than the one you have reached.

That your view from on high doesn't allow you to view us as anything other than ignorant and naive, doesn't make that true of us. (In fact, it is only instructive of you.)

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I put an exclamation point in there, Tres, to signal to you that I was joshing.

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Tartarin wrote:

I put an exclamation point in there, Tres, to signal to you that I was joshing.

I thought that was an emoticon for the middle finger. :wink:

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You seem to like to have things precisely laid out, Tres, so let me add (re your "elitist views" remarks) that I see peace as being moral and war as immoral. I don't see myself as being an elitist for holding that view!

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A large rally just went through Boston. I was happy to see also passers-by joining in and cars honking. It was a very varied crowd too (for Boston anyway) and people of all ages were a part of it. And Tres, this war is not just about your government and citizenry. Try to look beyond borders of this country every now and then. Unfortunately our future as a world community will be negatively impacted for many years to come.

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dag: Why do you not see the intellectual inconsistency of individuals such as Saddam Hussein in your "world community" concept? (An eerily chilling concept, I might add, and one that I would not support.)

While you continue to exercise your right to protest, please do not forget the men and women who died in battles such as the one now ensuing to ensure you that right.

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i repeat: i am not against war per se. never was. i do not like saddam. never did. but i do not believe that the benefit of toppling him via this war will outweigh the long term negatives that it will bring for international relations - un, eu, eu-us, un-us, eu-nato, west-'rest', west itself, north-south, whichever of those will be worse off in the years to come and it will take lots of scrambling to get to where we were say half a year ago. i posted my opinions before in detail, thus i believe this summary will suffice.

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I agree with your view, dagmaraka.

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oh, and i do not forget men and women in iraq. many will die of hunger and starvation for they depend on humanitarian aid, now blocked. my father spent a considerable chunk of his life in prison during communism and was helped, if not saved, by support of the western organizations. i do not forget that. but it was a broad support, based on consensus, backed uniformly by international institutions, not actions of one or few countries. why is the consensus non-existent in the case of war against iraq, if it was possible in a large number of other un operations? or do you sincerely believe that the rest of the world outside of the u.s., uk, and co. is just a bunch of cowardly immoral chickens?
One last objection: do not accuse those who disagree with war from supporting saddam, or not seeing his horrendous human rights violations, because that just is not true.

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Go Dag go Dag go Dag...

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Fair enough. If YOU do not confuse those of us who support this action with bloodthirsty imperialists lusting for the scent of conquest and oil.

I am hard pressed to understand the utility, other than cover for domestic terrorists, of protestations such as those that occurred in San Francisco today.

Protest before the war begins, and fight like heck to replace the incumbents, but during the fighting, stay home.

And live to protest another day.

A couple of domestic incidents of terror are all that are necessary to blur the distinction between well meaning individuals with a difference of opinion with the present administration, and those who would seek to do this country harm.

sozo: You are smart enough to have already figured this out, I am sure, but I would urge you to exercise caution and "keep your head down" as it were.

Anyone who hopes to raise in charitable contributions the amount you are seeking can only hurt your cause by being too strenuous in your opposition to the conflict.

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Eh???

I wouldn't bring up the war while soliciting donations. Duh.

What does the rest of it mean?

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Quote:

Quote:
It has nothing to do with 'feeling good' Tres. It has to do with continuing to speak out, to be heard, to forward ideas and principles which one feels the absence of will be detrimental to the community.

Sorry, Bernie, but we both know that may be true for some, but for others, these protests have just replaced keggers and raves. "Look at me! See how much I care? Hey, do you care too? Wow, we are so much better than all those morons who don't care!"

tres

This is, in two ways, a fallacious argument. Please attend carefully.

First, you suggest some significant proportion of those protesting do so not out of thoughtful principle, but for another unlaudable motive. You, of course, have no way of knowing that to be so. The claim reflects your own bias.

Second, even if some portion of those protesting do so for other reasons that the folks in this thread who are protesting, your dismissal of the protests because of those few is an ad hominem...your indictment seeks to avoid the actual argument (the stated reasons they protest) by invalidating the speakers. You might as well say, "They are the same people at every protest" or "The protest in New York was organized by a commie fag."

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Tartarin wrote:
No, Tres -- Those who hold the government up to constant scrutiny are responsible citizens -- particularly when lives and/or freedoms could be lost. If you feel safe, that's fine. If we stir you up to reexamine our government, that's even better!

Yet you fail to see the absolute arrogance inherent in the notion that I need you to "stir [me] up to reexamine our government". The reality your elitist view precludes you from recognizing is that I and others examine our government and these issues every bit as vigorously as you (in fact, I would argue that I and others do so far more and in far more meaningful ways). We have simply reached a different conclusion than the one you have reached.

That your view from on high doesn't allow you to view us as anything other than ignorant and naive, doesn't make that true of us. (In fact, it is only instructive of you.)

Tres

"Elitist"? "On high"? "Absolute arrogance"? Please read your post here again, and note your own claims to superior wisdom and care in thinking, claims that you make not infrequently.

For whatever set of reasons, you are continuing to personally attack other posters here - not their ideas. It may be that when someone suggests that this president whom you support is a dangerous dufus, or that his ideas and policies are un-American, you take that personally. You ought not to do that, it would be an incorrect assumption of what I or Tartarin or others are up to. That we might be seeking to change your outlook would be a more correct evaluation. But that is simply the process of idea exchange in a free society, and it is not in any way a bad thing.

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Max

No one here thinks YOU are a blood thirsty imperialist. Some of here do think that this adminstration is acting in such a way as to closely match that colorful description. But we are clear that you aren't them. Our arguments are directed towards suggesting your support of them (or others' support of them) is not good for America or the world.

As to protesting an administration's prosecution of a war while the war is on, you and a number of us disagree on points of morality, citizenship, and efficacy.

But sozobe's reaction to your post is understandable...I don't know what you are trying to say either.

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