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SHARE YOUR CITY'S PEACE RALLY HERE.

 
 
trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 10:44 am
Tartarin wrote:
You seem to like to have things precisely laid out, Tres, so let me add (re your "elitist views" remarks) that I see peace as being moral and war as immoral. I don't see myself as being an elitist for holding that view!

What can I write that hasn't been written before? Your argument stems from the premise that you want peace and others do not. I think that's ignorant and elitist. You like to think you are better than those who support the war. I think that is ignorant and elitist.

There are those here who do not support this war, but clearly and intelligently make the case for why they do not, and seem to recognize that those who disagree don't want war, they want a peace where Saddam is no longer a threat to peace. I respect them. You choose not to see that, because it weakens your argument that "war is immoral". Was it immoral to fight Hitler? The US was not directly threatened by him. Why did we fight to liberate France? That's not our country. It wasn't our concern.

How would you like to live in "peace" in a world ruled by a Hitler, or a Hussein, or a Stalin, or a Kim? If the rest of the world simply put down their weapons and let one ruthless dictator take control of the whole planet, we would all be at peace, wouldn't we? How "moral" would that peace be? How "immoral" would military action taken to prevent it be?

And please don't pretend that I'm arguing that you must agree that this situation mandates military action. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing your ridiculous claim that no situation ever does, that all peace is moral and all war is not. Rolling Eyes
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 10:51 am
Tres

Tartarin has not argued that war is absolutely evil. She has on a number of occassions said precisely that that is not so.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 12:00 pm
blatham wrote:
Tres

Tartarin has not argued that war is absolutely evil. She has on a number of occassions said precisely that that is not so.

Bernie - Perhaps you missed this:

Tartarin wrote:
You seem to like to have things precisely laid out, Tres, so let me add ... that I see peace as being moral and war as immoral. I don't see myself as being an elitist for holding that view!

My comments were accurate, on point, and stand as written. Peace is not inherently "moral"; neither is war inherently "immoral". As statistics I have shared before show, far more people were killed within the context of a totalitarian "peace" during the previous century than were killed in all the wars of the previous century (roughly 115 MILLION--mostly innocent civilians VS. 35 MILLION--mostly soldiers).
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 12:53 pm
I don't think it's worth commenting any more Tres. I think you're mistaken and I think you're gunnin' for me, so excuse me if I duck and run.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 03:03 pm
Tartarin wrote:
I don't think it's worth commenting any more Tres. I think you're mistaken and I think you're gunnin' for me, so excuse me if I duck and run.

Not gunning for anyone, Tartarin, just gunning for the positions you state when I think they are flawed. Stand and defend them or duck and run, it's your choice and "it's all good". We don't have to agree. I don't have to see your logic, nor you, mine. I tend to think you recognize the failure of your all or nothing philosophy, but only because I tend to think you're an intelligent person.

I understand clamoring for "peace", I just don't see it as terribly rational or useful unless you define the parameters of what constitutes an acceptable or tenable peace. Then you start to consider useful things like: Is that what we have today? What if anything do we need to do to ensure that it stays that way, and when? How do we keep it that way if we are happy with the peace we have? Etc...

When we go down that road, suddenly a lot of very interesting debates open up for us. Instead, you and others want to claim that you are for peace and others are not. I see that as a completely worthless and arrogant argument.

But again, that's just my opinion, and what the hell do I know? Very Happy
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 04:12 pm
trespassers, to suggest there there is anything rational or logical regarding human events/activities implies a naivete of enormous proportion. you surprise me with that statement.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 04:16 pm
Exactly, Tres!
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 04:27 pm
Tres, seriously for a moment. I don't like arguing with you the same points over and over again -- it's boring and sometimes unpleasant because of ad hominem risks. Feel free to criticize my way of thinking but, as I've also indicated to Perception, I just don't want to continue the two-way conversation, boxing with straw men. Make of that what you will. I think we know what peace is. I think we know what aggression is. I think I've learned what badgering is! Alors, c'est fini.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 04:29 pm
Just saw the march in Cambridge along Mass Ave. There were maybe 100-150 people protesting the war and, in front, 6-7 supporting it.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 04:49 pm
There was a fairly large parade down Broadway in Manhattan -- springy day, lots of enthusiasm, police refusing to give crowd estimates because they're "too political"! (This according to the NPR reporter on site...) I'll see if the Times has posted anything...
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 04:53 pm
Sheesh -- I guess it was big, and I guess the police did keep count, at least at the start...

"It was a beautiful day for a demonstration - sunny, breezy and just warm enough - as more than 100,000 New Yorkers took to the streets to protest the war in Iraq. For four hours beginning at noon, the peaceful crowd ambled, danced and marched down Broadway from Herald Square to Waverly Place and then over to Washington Square Park. The organizers of the march said that the crowd exceeded a quarter of a million; an unofficial estimate from the police put the number at 120,000 or more."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/22/international/worldspecial/22WIRES-RALLIES.html
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littlek
 
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Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 05:02 pm
big indeed.
BBC on protests around the globe
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 05:16 pm
Whew! That's impressive, really impressive.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 06:27 pm
More from the NYT link posted above:

The crowd came in many colors and flavors, and so did its moods. Some signs were prayerful or polite ("Please stop the killing''), while others employed angry expletives. Many handmade signs referred to the bomb barrage on Baghdad on Friday, like the one that read "New Yorkers remember our own shock and awe.''

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2003/03/22/national/22manhattan.jpg
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 06:42 pm
PDiddie -- I've got the method down pat for importing images into posts, except that even my larger pix come up in avatar size. Is there a cure? Will I be able to post an appropriate illustration from the New Yorker for your delectation?
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NeoGuin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 07:24 pm
The one is Harrisburg went well--of the ones I went to I think it was the largetst one.

One thing I also liked about this was that a lot of the speakers talked about keeping this movement going even after this war is over. A lot of mentions about making sure the US is held accountable and of defeating Bush and the war party.

Only question is--will these people back it up!

Also--no pro-war types, probably all too busy watching this like I'm now watching the NCAAs!

GO BLUE DEVILS!
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 08:36 pm
New York City
On the Streets

I took the 6 to Grand Central and then the shuttle over to 42nd/Broadway. There was a crowd at the top of the stairs waiting to pass through the breaks in the barricades. We stood like we were waiting for a movie ticket or to check out at Zabar's. If there is one thing New Yorkers are good at it's standing on line. We passed up and out and into the beautiful day. Then another stalled moment or two before we were on Broadway.
Holy Moly, look at all the people, look at all the flags and banners, look at all the signs! I caught the girl who was selling the "Dissent IS Patriotic"
pins and bought one. I have no flag, I have no banner but I have a pin, now I feel official, like a Catholic on Ash Wednesday walking with the little black smudged cross on his forehead. I have a pin.
Now we are moving. Are we marching? No, we are moving, but there doesn't seem to be much meter to the movement. It's a flowing of humanity, out in front of me, as far as I can see, a river of people. There are eddys and whirlpools of people, there are backflows and great surges and even rapids. There is clapping and drumming and the flags making waves. There are little knots of friends here and there, couples pushing baby carriages, young girls in twos and threes, old hippies wearing headkerchiefs, and college boys leaning against eachother. Hooting, cheering, rolling along down Broadway. There is joy here and anger and dismay and hope and so many voices. So many layers of the river.

I get out of the flow at 23rd Street, I stand there for a moment watching the river. The people, the people, elbow to elbow, hip to hip-hip, stretching up the avenue, out of sight, perhaps all the way back to 42nd Street and I look at roiling sweep of souls and wonder:
Will all this walking stop one bullet?
Will any of these voices sing the one note that brings the Paraclete?

Aren't all these motions mantras?
Aren't all these mantras enough?

Joe Nation
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2003 09:50 pm
So this time I did go to the demonstration against the war in Amsterdam. You may remember that last time I was still too much of two minds to take such a stand, but after the way the US dumped the whole notion of international law and order together with the UN in its haste to start what I'm sure will prove a succesful war - an illegal, successful war, I decided to join the ranks of protestors. I liked best the big banner of the Green Left that read: "Make law - not war". I also liked the modest sign saying "Not right now", as it neatly summarised my feelings about the issue.

The demo was smaller than the previous one, 20 to 30 thousand instead of last month's 60 thousand, but it was still impressive as it curved through and around the canals, and it was surprisingly diverse. A lot of older people, it struck me, 40 or 50 plus, from the aristocratic-looking grey-haired man of the Esperanto movement to the women in their fifties sharing their home-made lunch together while walking on in their sensible shoes. Also of course the alternative young folk, from squatters to cheerful high school kids. Quite a number of Iraqis and also groups of Moroccans, strident ones, too, rallying around the distinctly un-pacifist sounding slogans of the Arab-European League.

Many people carried UN flags; many others EU flags, which was definitely a first for demonstrations like this. This whole thing might still prove to be quite catalystic for a sense of loyalty to the EU - to the "old Europe" core of it, in any case.

Boats in the canals had signs up and many houses had posters and banners from the windows. On the roof of a house at the railway tracks that all the trains pass by someone had painted: Spring is coming, war is coming. There were obscure left-wing groups of all kinds, of course, as always - the loonie left fringe, with trotskyites in four denominations; but their efforts were far surpassed by that of the Socialist and Green Left parties. There were even individual Labour Party members, a former minister among them, with one particular youth movement group singing the Internationale - which had me and two other guys nearby simultaneously stunned in instant disbelief, then falling over laughing - who would have thought, huh, anyone still knew the text?

It was also a bit of an execrise in nostalgia for me, I must admit, as this is how I was raised ... and whenever I tried to remember I immediately got response, which was funny. Like when I yelled out (immediately unnerved, because I find it extremely hard to take anyone seriously when yelling out loud, myself least of all Wink: "no man, no woman, no child for the war", an elder lady immediately responded: "that's an old one!". And when I tried the "Bush molenaar" one (see earlier post), I got an instant grin of recognition from a 50-something man. Otherwise I kept quiet and made lots of pictures, of which I'll post one or two whenever it is they're ready, perhaps.

Anyway - we did our bit, for Anastasia her first rally ever, for me the first one I'd took part in in over ten years. Made clear that enough people still think that achieving success does not necessarily OKs the breaking of the rules; that enough people are still "not convinced" that war was necessary, at this point in time. It'll put a little extra pressure on the government to not get involved in this war, and save up its resources for helping to clean up the debris afterwards instead.
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2003 07:05 am
~ from today's Guardian:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anti-war protests span the globe
Staff and agencies
Monday March 24, 2003

In the latest of a series of anti-war protests worldwide, demonstrators in the public gallery of Australia's parliament today heckled and abused the prime minister, John Howard, over his support for the US-led offensive in Iraq.
Today's protests in Canberra follow a weekend of demonstrations around the world in opposition to the invasion, and a small number of pro-war marches in American cities.

On Saturday between 30,000 and 50,000 demonstrators In Sydney, Australia, called for an end to the invasion and pleaded for their country's 2,000 troops in the area to be brought home.

More than 100,000 people marched through Lahore, Pakistan, some carrying portraits of Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Some, including small children, chanted anti-American slogans, but the protest ended peacefully. An alliance of hardline Islamic parties said today it would organise three more demonstrations in the coming weeks.

"Hatred against America is increasing. People find this a means for peaceful expression of opposition to all kinds of oppression against women and children," said Shahid Shamsi, spokesman for the Mutahida Majlis-e-Amal or United Action Forum religious alliance.

"We will continue until the world stops this crime," Shamsi said. "We will continue until their conscience wakes up."

In Bangladesh, a group of disabled people - some in wheelchairs or leaning on crutches - rallied peacefully against the war in front of the parliament building in the capital, Dhaka. Demonstrators carried photographs of Iraqi children with bandaged limbs and shouted "War maims!"

In the United States, demonstrators rallied in several cities, both for and against the war. In New York's Times Square, about 600 people waved American flags and chanted "U-S-A! "U-S-A!" to show support for Operation Iraqi Freedom. Near Richmond, Virginia, police said more than 5,000 people rallied to show their support for the war In Los Angeles, anti-war protesters demonstrated near the Kodak Theatre where the Oscars were being handed out. There were scattered clashes with police and a few arrests.

Thousands protested at two US military bases in Italy. Activists draped a long black banner across Rome's Coliseum in a gesture of mourning for the victims of war, and a large sign with the words "Against the War, Rome for Peace" was raised at the start of the city's marathon.

In Japan, up to 2,000 rallied peacefully in several cities, including Hiroshima, where demonstrators gathered in front of a memorial for those killed when America dropped an atomic bomb at the end of World War II.

In Afghanistan, where US troops continued their search for terrorists, about 1,000 people demonstrated in the eastern town of Mehtar Lam, an Afghan military official said.

Clashes continued for a third straight day outside the US Embassy in Bahrain, where demonstrators threw stones and set tires ablaze. About 200 protesters fought with riot police and the American and British embassies remained closed.

More than 15,000 students at four Egyptian universities protested on the schools' grounds. In Khartoum, the Sudanese capital, demonstrators threw stones and empty bottles at the US Embassy, and thousands of protesters marched to a United Nations office.

A Khartoum demonstration on Saturday turned to violence, with authorities investigating the shooting death of a university student protester. In Athens, Greece, police said opponents of the war carried out arson attacks on an American bank and a fast-food outlet.

A petrol bomb was thrown at the entrance of a closed suburban McDonald's restaurant in Athens. In a separate incident, a Citibank branch near the Greek capital was damaged by a device with small cooking gas cylinders. Authorities said no one was hurt.

Anti-war Muslim extremists protested in Indonesia, saying the killing of US President George Bush would be legal under Islamic law. Demonstrators torched a US flag and an effigy of Bush.

In New Zealand, a Roman Catholic priest and another religious activist said they used their own blood to make a cross on the carpet of the US Consul's office in Auckland on Monday. Father Peter Murnane and Nicholas Drake, a Catholic activist, had an appointment with US Consul Douglas Berry purportedly to read him an anti-war statement.

But when the men entered Berry's office, they took out a container of their own blood and poured it onto the floor, making a 1 metre long cross, the two said. The blood's origin couldn't be confirmed and it wasn't known how much blood the container held.

The US administration was "spilling great quantities of blood on the soil of Iraq," Murnane and Drake said in a statement afterward. "We now make the sign of the cross with our blood on the floor, in this outpost of the United States."

~~
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2003 12:30 pm
The war even can't be avoided when watching sports - the players of Barcelona (one of the two major football clubs in Spain) unrolled a banner saying they opposed war before starting their game of the week.
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