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Why I left the Democratic Party

 
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 20 Jan, 2018 10:25 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
I thought so. The Dems will start funding for a wall if this piece is accurate. Disgusting.

Why disgusting? What is so horrible about the wall?

I understand that the wall is not something that you may see a need for.

But not seeing a need for something isn't much justification for fighting to the death to oppose it. Out of all of the possible things that might be opposed in this world, this wall doesn't seem to be that big of a deal.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jan, 2018 10:30 pm
@edgarblythe,
I think the Republicans may be actually enjoying this.

edgarblythe wrote:

I thought so. The Dems will start funding for a wall if this piece is accurate. Disgusting.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/01/how-the-shutdown-ends.html

After it became clear on Friday that Democrats and Republicans were not going to reach an agreement to keep the government open, there was some chatter around the Capitol that we might just be facing a “weekend shutdown”—a couple of days to finalize some tentative agreement that could cruise through both chambers in time for non-essential federal workers to return to the office on Monday morning.

How precious that thinking was.

Both the House and the Senate went into session on Saturday—for press conferences, meetings, speeches, and some procedural votes—and they did not leave with an agreement, or any apparent progress towards one. The impasse, it seems, will have to be resolved by the public.

Republicans and Democrats couldn’t even agree on a proper accounting of what transpired on Friday.

The Senate Democratic leader, Chuck Schumer, has said that he offered to consider the full spending request for President Trump’s promised border wall when the two met on Friday, and that the president later backed out on some tentative agreements once his advisers, including Chief of Staff John Kelly, got to him. But in a briefing Saturday, Office of Management and Budget Director Mick Mulvaney told a different story: The president asked Schumer for $20 billion to build the wall, and Schumer rejected it, only offering the original $1.6 billion request outlined in the White House’s 2018 budget.



“We absolutely did not reject the full funding request,” a senior Democratic aide told me. “Schumer and Trump agreed by the end that they were close enough on everything that they should pursue a short term CR to facilitate a deal, so nothing was agreed to but they were in good shape on an overall framework. Then Kelly started to unravel it.”

There’s also a dispute over why a deal failed to come together during the frenzied two-hour Senate vote Friday night. The proposal included a bill to fund the government through Feb. 8, rather than Feb. 16, as well as a commitment to move a bipartisan immigration bill through the Senate and the House—either in a stand-alone vote in the next few weeks or attached to the Feb. 8 spending bill. The Senate Democratic Whip, Dick Durbin, claims that when Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and House Speaker Paul Ryan spoke on the phone to discuss this, Ryan rejected it outright. (There was a moment on the floor last night when McConnell walked back into the chamber from a call, said something to Durbin, and Durbin rolled his eyes and shook his head.) McConnell spokesperson David Popp described Durbin’s characterization as “laughably false,” and said “there was no deal at any time that was blown up by Speaker Ryan. Period.” Ryan’s spokeswoman, AshLee Strong, said that “the speaker was not part of any deal or involved in any negotiations.”


Whether Ryan formally tanked a “deal”—there’s some wiggle room here—is a technical point. Everyone understands the dynamic. House Republicans do not want to take up the Senate’s bipartisan immigration bill. If they did, the Senate could wrap that and all of the other loose ends quickly. If House leaders brought up the Senate’s immigration bill, it could pass the House with mostly Democratic votes, over the objections of conservative members. Such a move could invite a challenge to Ryan’s speakership from the right—especially if the Senate bill doesn’t currently enjoy the president’s support. This, in very condensed form, is the dilemma: Most Senate Democrats will not vote for a spending bill until there’s a path for getting protections for Dreamers passed in both houses, and House Republicans and the White House are saying that they will not negotiate on immigration while the government is shut down.

So how does the government reopen? The answer to that won’t be known for a few days.

First, the public must decide who’s to blame. As the shutdown lingers and more people pay attention, polling will more clearly reveal which party is “losing.” The losing side will then sue for peace, and then it’s just a matter of negotiating the terms of surrender. Since the “winning” side has zero incentive to save the losing party, the surrender offer will likely be nothing.

So much of the punditry about shutdowns is about how it will affect the midterm elections, and so little of it is about the very important items that are at stake. But the political fears are just a spur for resolving a policy logjam. Shutdowns are a referendum on a particular policy impasse, and they’re risky because the winner takes the spoils.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 01:50 pm
@maporsche,
I know nothing of the sort.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 01:51 pm
@Real Music,
No, you want to make sure you can find a way to excuse Dems.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 02:06 pm
I'm convinced more and more the Republicans are playing a stick and carrot game with Democrats. "Give us what we want right now and then we will consider the items important to you." Which of course would leave those items unprotected, allowing the Republicans to deface or remove them at their whim. This is likely one of the last chances the Democrats will have to resist the thugs, unless the Democrats make enough gains in the near elections. By 2020 it may be too late to salvage anything, that's how destructive the Republicans and their president are.
Real Music
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 02:12 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
No, you want to make sure you can find a way to excuse Dems.

An excuse it not needed. I am merely making an observation.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 02:37 pm
@edgarblythe,
Sounds like you’re accepting the fact that more Democrats are needed to limit the damage the Republicans can cause to things you find important.

What are you going to do to help them get elected?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 02:40 pm
@maporsche,
I'm going to hold them true to liberal standards so I can vote for them.
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 02:47 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Do you admit that for at least the last year (if not longer) he Republicans have been shutting 48% if the Senate out of the legislative process?

Closed door meetings. Back room deals. Few (if any) normal leglislative processes are being followed.

When John McCain and Lindsay Graham state that the senate needs to return to ‘normal order’ what do you think they mean?


When pushed into a corner, even the most tempered dog will bite back. When the R’s have spent the last year shutting the D’s out of everything (despite forming almost half of government) you can understand why these things happen.


Nothing about the Trump presidency has been anywhere near normal or business as usual in Washington.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 03:26 pm
@maporsche,
And when the Dems held both houses of Congress that did the same.

Your point?
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 03:34 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
No Finn. They did not do the same. Not nearly as often and not in the slightest to the degree.

But that’s enough of your whataboutism, the discussion I thought we were having was why the D’s did what they did.

What do McCain and Graham men’s when they say the Senate needs to return to normal order?


What do you think about the idea that putting the pork-spending back into these spending bills would solve many of these problems.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 03:40 pm
@edgarblythe,
You live in Texas (I think). Are you going to vote for the democrat running even if they don’t meet the standard of Sanders?

You know that for left-leaning things to happen the Democrats need to get control in order to set the legislative agenda and bring bills to a vote.

We can have a party if that has 35 senators with the same or better voting record as Sanders and 16 that may not.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 03:45 pm
@maporsche,
Yes they did --- see Obamacare for one.

I have no idea what a couple of old Establishment farts mean when they say anything.

We're back to the point where you and the Dems in this forum want to insist that your tribe is better than the other, notwithstanding all the evidence that they are the same.
maporsche
 
  3  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 03:54 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Yes they did --- see Obamacare for one.

I have no idea what a couple of old Establishment farts mean when they say anything.

We're back to the point where you and the Dems in this forum want to insist that your tribe is better than the other, notwithstanding all the evidence that they are the same.


Oh yeah, Obamacare, were we debated the bill for, was it 18 months and there were bipartisan legislative sessions and town halls and amendments proposed and passed and republicans were able to take the floor and have their say.

That’s a horrible example.

I do think that what the Republicans have done to block Democrats the last 7-8 years is literally unprecedented. As in, never happens to the same degree before in history. Blocking Obama’s SCOTUS pick for over a year being probably the worst example, followed by blocking almost all of this selections to the lower courts.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 04:12 pm
@maporsche,
You would.

Remove yourself from tribalism.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 04:14 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:
I do think that what the Republicans have done to block Democrats the last 7-8 years is literally unprecedented. As in, never happens to the same degree before in history. Blocking Obama’s SCOTUS pick for over a year being probably the worst example, followed by blocking almost all of this selections to the lower courts.

But it did happen before. The Democrats blocked all of W's nominees even to the most trivial of positions for the entire last two years of his presidency. Then when Republicans tried to retaliate in kind early in Obama's presidency, the Democrats used the nuclear option to force Obama's nominees through.

When the Republicans blocked Obama's Supreme Court pick and then used the nuclear option to force through Trump's nominee, they were merely giving the Democrats a dose of their own medicine. Giving the Democrats a hefty dose of their own medicine is often the only way to make the Democrats curb their abusive behavior.

It'll probably be a long while before we see a Democratic president again. But when it does happen, expect their presidency to be tied down in baseless criminal investigations -- once again giving the Democrats a dose of their own medicine.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 04:22 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

You would.

Remove yourself from tribalism.


It’s not tribalism. Facts support that opinion.

Most do-nothing congress in history.
Constant attacks on the presidents religion or citizenship
Fewest federal judges appointed or filibustered (more than almost all other presidents combined)
The 1+ year hold up of a SCOTUS pick has never been seen before.
Coming close to not raising the debt ceiling

I mean I could go on and on.

I can’t believe that you think what’s been happening in Congress is normal.

maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 04:28 pm
@maporsche,
I think republicans in Congress are actually quite PROUD of that unprecedented level of obstruction. I think McConnell and Ryan wear it as a badge of honor.

I don’t think they’d be disagreeing with these points at all.
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 04:45 pm
@maporsche,
Quote:
I don't think they'd be disagreeing...


Some would. Of course, as we have seen, those who are most upset and angered by what their fellow Republicans are doing, have opted to not seek reelection, thereby letting the problems get worse.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2018 05:35 pm
I don't want to see headlines like this if I voted for someone.

"18 Dem Senators Vote For Trump To Spy On You Without A Warrant"

Also I don't want Democrats voting to build that stupid wall.
 

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