Why I left the Democratic Party

@edgarblythe,

Quote:

Well, this story gives one an idea why the Democrats suck almost as bad as the Republicans.

I am just finding out about this Florida story from reading your post. I find that what the democrats are doing in Florida is disturbing. I try not to focus on an isolated case. You did say the Democrats are almost as bad as the Republicans. At least we can both agree that the Republicans are worse.

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@Real Music,

Real Music wrote:

Quote:
Well, this story gives one an idea why the Democrats suck almost as bad as the Republicans.
I am just finding out about this Florida story from reading your post. I find that what the democrats are doing in Florida is disturbing. I try not to focus on an isolated case. You did say the Democrats are almost as bad as the Republicans. At least we can both agree that the Republicans are worse.

But only slightly

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@Real Music,

This thread is about ideological purity.

The modern Democrats tend to be for diversity on racial and gender issues, and tend to support a social safety net, universal healthcare and workers over corporations. Of course, if you need 65 million people to win a national elections... you are going to have a diversity of opinion.

There is no room for litmus tests in a winning political coalition. Issues like abortion are difficult... there are people who agree with Democrats about diversity and economic fairness, but believe in the sanctity of life. Whether the Democrats should push these people aside is an interesting question. I think Edgar and Lash are going even further.

You win elections by including, and representing, a large number of voters. If the Democratic party, by being tolerate of different viewpoints within the party, can gain 5 or 10 million new voters, I think they can accept the fact that they are losing Edgar and Lash

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@maxdancona,

Somewhere on A2K there is a thread in which GMOs are discussed and in which I posted numerous links to scientific studies and opinions on the safety of GMOs. None of them, of course, were from foodbabe.com, so they probably won't satisfy Monsanto Haters.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

GMOs the liberal version of global warming. They choose politics over a clear scientific consensus.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Found it https://able2know.org/topic/250917-1#post-5730877<br />
Full disclosure: It contain plenty of swipes at anti-science liberals (would anyone expect otherwise?)

To be fair I'm including Farmerman's cautionary response, with which I don't have much problem, because I don't believe we should assume that every GMO will be safe, and I'm open to legitimate scientific criticism...but not fear mongering
https://able2know.org/topic/250917-2#post-5731011

So as to not turn this into a thread on GMOs, I suggest that if we want to delve into the matter further we use the linked thread.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Sure, I am only using GMOs as one example of the ideological purity that hurts political parties (in this case the Democratic party).

Incidently, Trump is the least ideologically pure president I think we have ever had. He clearly has no core, just saying slogans to pump up as many people as possible. It is sad that this strategy has worked so well for the Republicans.

We live in a bi-partisan political system. It would be nice if the parties could organize around core principals, but then allow for diversity of opinion from both voters and candidates alike.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Sure, I am only using GMOs as one example of the ideological purity that hurts political parties (in this case the Democratic party).

Understood

Incidently, Trump is the least ideologically pure president I think we have ever had.

I don't know about that but he is certainly not an ideologue. Doesn't mean he can't be a good president though.

We live in a bi-partisan political system. It would be nice if the parties could organize around core principals, but then allow for diversity of opinion from both voters and candidates alike.

To some extent they do, but the politicians of each party are driven, first and foremost, by getting re-elected, and preserving their cushy positions.

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

Term limits won't help, unless politicians also are not allowed to become lobbyists or cash in on information they received while in office.

The influence lobbyists have over politicians is financial, and largely in terms of financing their re-election campaigns. I'm sure there are plenty of gratuities thrown in, but what these folks want most is to be re-elected. Term limits won't eliminate the influence of lobbyists but they will reduce it.

There are already 'insider trading" laws concerning members of congress, but they are too weak and everyone there has essentially agreed not to enforce them, as long as members are discreet.

Term limits are not a silver bullet but they would be a big help.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn, I am just curious....

What would Trump have to do to convince you that he is a horrible president? So far Trump has failed to push legislation... it isn't just that the Republicans failed to get the votes, Trump did absolutely nothing to help. He has skirted ethics laws, taken excessive vacations. All he has done so far is taken credit for an economic recovery that started under Obama, and made a bunch of tweets.

I don't mind if you still love Trump... after all, he is great for my side. But I can't imagine any intelligent conservative believing that he is anything other than a disaster for your side.

What the heck does he have to do to lose your undying support?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

First of all, I don't love Trump

I wish there had been a different alternative from the Republicans but there wasn't. I did hate Hillary Clinton and would have voted for Lucifer if he opposed her. I also hate the Establishment and Trump, at least, offered the possibility of an anti-Establishment presidency.

You only have to read my comments in this forum and stop making ignorant assumptions to know that he doesn't have anything like my undying support.

Frankly, I doubt you can imagine very much at all of what an intelligent conservative believes.

Defending him against an unhinged Resistance and the effort to stage a soft-coup does constitute love for the man.

It would be helpful if your restrained your smugness.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Sorry, I can not restrain my smugness. I love Trump.... he has done in 6 months what Democrats couldn't do in 8 years. He has made Obamacare popular.

I didn't realize what an incompetent president he would be. Were he competent, he could push the country to the right in some ways that I would consider harmful... but he isn't, so I am going to sit back and enjoy the show.

There is one thing about which I agree with you; I am very happy that Hillary didn't win.

Yes, the Trump antics are making me feel very smug.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

You win elections by including, and representing, a large number of voters. If the Democratic party, by being tolerate of different viewpoints within the party, can gain 5 or 10 million new voters, I think they can accept the fact that they are losing Edgar and Lash

They'd better get busy attracting Corporate Republicans by the next election. They've lost a hell of a lot more than Edgar and Lash.

Weakest Democrat party since after the Civil War.

https://www.google.com/amp/observer.com/2017/03/election-exit-polls-democratic-party-voter-demographic-turnout/amp/

1 Reply

@Lash,

Quote:

Weakest Democrat party since after the Civil War.

And the strongest Republican party?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
Weakest Democrat party since after the Civil War.

And the strongest Republican party?

I haven't made any claims about the GOP.

Are you capable of evaluating one without the knee-jerk comparison to the other?

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If they are forming a corporate party, comprised of Republicans and Democrats, we need a new party of the people more than ever. A party that will fight for all the citizens of country, north, south, people of color, whites, with realistic goals, such as universal health care, strengthening Social Security, putting the brake on these neverending wars, taxing the rich, separating politicians from lobbyist moneys, upping minimum wage. and so forth A party that will actually work to accomplish the goals they promise.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

You win elections by including, and representing, a large number of voters. If the Democratic party, by being tolerate of different viewpoints within the party, can gain 5 or 10 million new voters, I think they can accept the fact that they are losing Edgar and Lash

On more than one occasion I had made it known to A2K members that I am a big fan of both Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. They are probably my two favorite nationally elected officials. Just like most people, certain issues are more important to me than other issues. The democrat issues that are most important to me in no particular order includes:
1. Strong safety nets
2. Government programs (that assist the poor)
3. Consumer protections
4. Labor rights
5. Single payer/Medicare for all
6. Civil rights
7. Strong public education
8. Strong public health regulations
9. Strong public safety regulations
10.Strong environmental protections
11.Abolishing government subsidies that are going to big corporations.
12.Ensuring that the wealthy pay their fair share of taxes

It is true that democrats don't always fight hard enough for some of the issues that are most important to me. It is also true that republicans continue opposing the issues that are most important to me. With a binary choice of democrats somewhat fighting for my causes or the republicans fighting to hurt my causes. My only choice is to vote democrat. Third party candidates who have won elections in modern day history has been super rare. I don't believe a third party candidate has ever won a presidential election. At least not in modern day history. I strongly support both Edgar and Lash for continuing to push the democrats to fight for these important issues as well as other issues. If the democrats are not pushed to fight harder for these issues, it would result in them not fighting harder for these issues. I will continue voting democrat while trying to push them to fight harder for my issues. Yes, I do support Edgar and Lash. I will also continue to make the binary choice of voting democrat.

1 Reply

@Real Music,

We have 1,2,3,4,6,8,9,10 and 12.

I think, unfortunately, that #5 is inevitable, and as long as we have an excess of labor influence we won't achieve #7, at least not in inner cities.

I agree with you on #11 but that includes agricultural subsidies. You too?

None of these are horrible goals, and to the right degree, all are worthy.

The difference in opinion comes down to one's views on how strong. At some point strong becomes destructive. We obviously disagree on where those points are, but that's fine.

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

Would a a party of the people work to end abortion, build pipelines, and protect first amendment rights?

There are a lot of people who believe in these things.

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@edgarblythe,

We already have the Green Party. It is failing to attract very much support from the people.

1 Reply

Why I left the Democratic Party

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