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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 10:15 am
I'll second the bullcrap analysis. Strange how some lefties are more than willing to accept, even flaunt, unsubstantiated, incredible, and unbelievable junk by some ill trained, unethical, and most gullible reporter, and reject any solid, verifiable information that refutes it.

But then as I have said before, many lefties are far less concerned with accuracy or truth or the general welfare of the country than they are interested in seeing this president and his administration fail.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 10:16 am
timberlandko wrote:
Now, look, Bernie - we've barely begun undoing the wrongs of The Previous Administration; gonna be a while before we can redress things back to the Roosevelt era even, but we're on our way. I promise we won't tinker much with the Magna Carta though, no matter how strong the temptation.


Best of the season, timber.

But I put the same questions to you I gave to McG.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 10:27 am
What Foxy said.

<I third it>
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 10:28 am
Anon-Voter wrote:
Quote:
Members of Congress have no choice but to accept the challenge. They did so once before, when Richard Nixon, who said, "When the President does it, that means it's not illegal," posed a similar threat to the Constitution. The only possible answer is to inform Bush forthwith that if he continues in his defiance, he will be impeached.


I believe we have this situation now, only many times worse. I wonder when people will get it that when Bush" joked about a dictatorship, he wasn't joking!

Anon


It's worthwhile to think a bit about this joke. We all understand that it refers to the frustration of leading or administering while being inconveniently bound by existing strictures. We could, I think, suppose that anyone in such a position has suffered such frustration and that's what makes the joke a 'joke'.

It speaks to the temptation to remove obstacles to one's decisions and one's goals.

But the framers designed a system which is inherently frustrating to power. They did not design a monarchy or a hopefully benign dictatorship, but rather a system where all three branches of government are NECESSARILY facing frustration in their operations.

And they did that because they understood the tendency of power to accrete even more power to itself.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 10:29 am
Blatham
Blatham, imagine how much of a snit the Bush fans would be if that fornicator, Bill Clinton, was taking the actions Bush is taking. Of course, Bush is a Born Again Christian and can do no wrong. Imagine what kind of leader he might be if he were not a Christian?

{{{{{{{Shudder}}}}}}}

BBB
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 10:31 am
Unwarranted Complaints
By DAVID B. RIVKIN and LEE A. CASEY
Published: December 27, 2005

SHORTLY after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush ordered surveillance of international telephone communications by suspected members of Al Qaeda overseas, even if such calls also involved individuals within the United States. This program was adopted by direct presidential order and was subject to review every 45 days. Judicial warrants for this surveillance were neither sought nor obtained, although key members of Congress were evidently informed. The program's existence has now become public, and howls of outrage have ensued. But in fact, the only thing outrageous about this policy is the outrage itself.

The president has the constitutional authority to acquire foreign intelligence without a warrant or any other type of judicial blessing. The courts have acknowledged this authority, and numerous administrations, both Republican and Democrat, have espoused the same view. The purpose here is not to detect crime, or to build criminal prosecutions - areas where the Fourth Amendment's warrant requirements are applicable - but to identify and prevent armed attacks on American interests at home and abroad. The attempt, by Democrats and Republicans alike, to dismantle the president's core constitutional power in wartime is wrongheaded and should be vigorously resisted by the administration.

After all, even the administration's sternest critics do not deny the compelling need to collect intelligence about Al Qaeda's plans so we can thwart future attacks. So instead of challenging the program on policy grounds, most have focused on its legal propriety, specifically Mr. Bush's decision not to follow the framework established by the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

In an effort to control counterintelligence activities in the United States during the cold war, the surveillance act established a special court, known as the FISA court, with authority to issue wiretapping warrants. Instead of having to show that it has "probable cause" to believe criminal activity is taking place (which is required to obtain a warrant in an ordinary investigation), the government can get a warrant from the FISA court when there is probable cause to believe the target of surveillance is a foreign power or its agent.

Although the administration could have sought such warrants, it chose not to for good reasons. The procedures under the surveillance act are streamlined, but nevertheless involve a number of bureaucratic steps. Furthermore, the FISA court is not a rubber stamp and may well decline to issue warrants even when wartime necessity compels surveillance. More to the point, the surveillance act was designed for the intricate "spy versus spy" world of the cold war, where move and countermove could be counted in days and hours, rather than minutes and seconds. It was not drafted to deal with the collection of intelligence involving the enemy's military operations in wartime, when information must be put to immediate use.

Indeed, it is highly doubtful whether individuals involved in a conflict have any "reasonable expectation of privacy" in their communications, which is the touchstone of protection under both the Fourth Amendment and the surveillance act itself - anymore than a tank commander has a reasonable expectation of privacy in his communications with his commanders on the battlefield. The same goes for noncombatants swept up in the hostilities.

Even if Congress had intended to restrict the president's ability to obtain intelligence in such circumstances, it could not have constitutionally done so. The Constitution designates the president as commander in chief, and Congress can no more direct his exercise of that authority than he can direct Congress in the execution of its constitutional duties. As the FISA court itself noted in 2002, the president has "inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless foreign intelligence surveillance."

In this instance, in addition to relying on his own inherent constitutional authority, the president can also draw upon the specific Congressional authorization "to use all necessary and appropriate force" against those responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks "in order to prevent any future attacks of international terrorism against the United States." These words are sufficiently broad to encompass the gathering of intelligence about the enemy, its movements, its abilities and its plans, a core part of the use of force against Al Qaeda and its allies. The authorization does not say that the president can order the use of artillery, or air strikes, yet no one is arguing that therefore Mr. Bush is barred from doing so.

The fact that the statutory language does not specifically mention intelligence collection, or that this matter was not raised by the White House in negotiations with Congress, or even that the administration had sought even broader language, all points recently raised by former Senator Tom Daschle, is irrelevant.

Overall, this surveillance program is fully within the president's legal authority, is limited in scope (involving communications to or from overseas related to the war against Al Qaeda), and is subject to stringent presidential review. The contretemps its revelation has caused reveals much more about the chattering classes' fundamental antipathy to strong government in general, and strong executive power in particular, than it does about presidential overreaching.

The Constitution's framers did not vest absolute power in any branch of the federal government, including the courts, but they did create a strong executive and equipped the office with sufficient authority to act energetically to defend the national interest in wartime. That is what President Bush has done, and nothing more.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 10:32 am
All the best to you and yours, b - and may the coming year treat you well. Now, to your question(s) - if in an indirect manner.

By definition, war is a special circumstance, requiring special measures. What The Opposition rejects is that we are in a state of war, with all that entails, a war that began a generation ago and only now to which we are responding.

An immutable cornerstone of our sociopolitical system is the Cincinatus principle; when the emergency has passed, The Republic returns to normal rule, the Consul to his farm.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 10:33 am
Re: Blatham
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Blatham, imagine how much of a snit the Bush fans would be if that fornicator, Bill Clinton, was taking the actions Bush is taking. Of course, Bush is a Born Again Christian and can do no wrong. Imagine what kind of leader he might be if he were not a Christian?

{{{{{{{Shudder}}}}}}}

BBB


He's a lying, fornicator, BBB.


I understand you have trouble remembering that .... but never fear, I shall always do my best to remind you.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 10:39 am
Re: Blatham
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Blatham, imagine how much of a snit the Bush fans would be if that fornicator, Bill Clinton, was taking the actions Bush is taking. Of course, Bush is a Born Again Christian and can do no wrong. Imagine what kind of leader he might be if he were not a Christian?

{{{{{{{Shudder}}}}}}}

BBB


You mean, like, when Bill Clinton conducted door to door physical searches on public housing tenants without so much as a by-your-leave from the courts?

{{{{{{{Shudder}}}}}}}
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 10:42 am
Re: Blatham
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Blatham, imagine how much of a snit the Bush opologizers would be if that fornicater, Bill Clinton, was taking the actions Bush is taking. Of course, Bush is a Born Again Christian and can do no wrong. Imagine what kind of leader he might be if he were not a Christian?

{{{{{{{Shudder}}}}}}}

BBB


Well, I too am a fornicator, so perhaps am biased.

But my understanding here is a bit different perhaps. I don't consider that Bush's faith is terribly relevant to this dynamic (other than for some relatively small percent of his supporters). McG, for example, has expressed no alignment with faith. Timber would fit in the same godless category. I have no evidence to suggest that Cheney is religious other than for pragmatic appearance reasons and I suspect that is the case with Rumsfeld and many others in the administration.

It is party alignment which seems the fundamental predictor here.

And more broadly, I think, it has been the forwarding of an atmosphere of danger and fearfulness which the administration (and many supporters) have used to manufacture consent for this increasing imbalance of powers.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 10:49 am
timberlandko wrote:
All the best to you and yours, b - and may the coming year treat you well. Now, to your question(s) - if in an indirect manner.

By definition, war is a special circumstance, requiring special measures. What The Opposition rejects is that we are in a state of war, with all that entails, a war that began a generation ago and only now to which we are responding.

An immutable cornerstone of our sociopolitical system is the Cincinatus principle; when the emergency has passed, The Republic returns to normal rule, the Consul to his farm.


Indirect...I'll say.

Clearly, war is a special circumstance. But as regards the issue we are speaking of (balance of powers), the nature of this 'war' makes this issue far more important than during a normal war mainly because it might go on for decades.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 11:17 am
timberlandko wrote:
All the best to you and yours, b - and may the coming year treat you well. Now, to your question(s) - if in an indirect manner.

By definition, war is a special circumstance, requiring special measures. What The Opposition rejects is that we are in a state of war, with all that entails, a war that began a generation ago and only now to which we are responding.

An immutable cornerstone of our sociopolitical system is the Cincinatus principle; when the emergency has passed, The Republic returns to normal rule, the Consul to his farm.


This "emergency" has no end. We will always have terrorists to deal with. Calling it a war enables the Bush Administration to be in a war forever, therefore requiring war powers forever. He has now expanded these war powers to in-coutry surveillance. I know there's a lot of subtrfuge going on, but I understand he spied on Richardson for some reason. He has also expanded his to include spying on the U.N. to determine who is voting and what for.

I can't get over that people are ok with this, and can justiy it in any flavor!

I'm going to start a topic on the next area we are expanding the "war on terror" to. Another sinkhole that Bush is getting involved in.

Anon
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 11:37 am
Bush continues to support his position in every speech with "as long as I'm president." He's beginning to lose favor with his own party, so his "I'm the president" is losing steam.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 11:40 am
He's definitely losing support alright. He's down to 79% approval among GOP likely voters vs 81% at the peak high. I don't think he would have to worry much about re-election if he was running in 2006. He isn't of course which still seems to escape some hopeful Democrats.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 11:44 am
Foxfyre wrote:
He's definitely losing support alright. He's down to 79% approval among GOP likely voters vs 81% at the peak high. I don't think he would have to worry much about re-election if he was running in 2006. He isn't of course which still seems to escape some hopeful Democrats.

Yes indeed, it's the americans in general, the masses, the majority, the herd that think he's not doing a good job and does not deserve approval.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 11:54 am
Bush Reads, Gives Books to Top Democrats
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 12:00 pm
Quote:
He has also expanded his to include spying on the U.N. to determine who is voting and what for.


So?
Under the rules that you claim he broke,this is legal.
After all,with the exception of the US mission to the UN,everyone there is foreign and thus able to be spied on for the purpose of gathering foreign intelligence.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 12:04 pm
President's actions are not reassuring


It would seem that President Bush is doing a lot of lashing out not only at the media but also at members of Congress. It would appear that he expects both the American people and Congress to say, "Yes, sir, you are absolutely right, sir," and give him the go-ahead on whatever decisions he makes. We are supposed to "trust" him! However, if we believe the recent polls, President Bush has lost much of his credibility and trust by the majority of American people, plus some Republicans in Congress.

Evidently authorizing the "wholesale eavesdropping on Americans and others without search warrants" has, in effect, broken the law. However, he felt justified in doing so because it would "save American lives." However, recently the Sept. 11 Commission reviewed what has actually been accomplished in connection with its recommendations for the safety of our country and the administration came up with 17 F's or D's as opposed to one A- in carrying out these recommendations.

Again, the facts seem to be at odds with the president's rhetoric. Rhetoric has its place but action (within the law) seems to be what is desperately needed if our country and its people are to feel secure.

Katrina (a natural disaster) and its aftermath have provided a clear warning that as of today we are definitely unprepared to handle a terrorist attack.

Ruth M. Pfeiffer, Richmond



Originally published December 28, 2005
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 12:08 pm
Even FOX hs Bush down in the polls:


SURVEY.........DATES...APPROVE...DISAPP...UNS.
CNN/USA Today/Gallup 12/16-18/05 41 56 3 -15
.

ABC/Washington Post 12/15-18/05 47 52 1 -5
.

NPR LV 12/15, 17-18/05 44 54 2 -10
.

FOX/Opinion Dynamics RV 12/13-14/05 42 51 7 -9
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 12:08 pm
CI,
quick,how mant terrorist attacks on American soil have there been since 9/11?
0 Replies
 
 

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