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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 10:39 am
Dys
dyslexia wrote:
Irregardless? bernie you know better!
IRRESPECTIVE OR REGARDLESS BUT NOT Irregardless


You beat me to "irregardless". I just e-mailed Blatham, not wanting to hang him in public for his newly coined word.

BBB
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 10:48 am
The Paranoid Style In American Liberalism
by William Kristol

No reasonable American, no decent human being, wants to send up a white flag in the war on terror. But leading spokesmen for American liberalism-hostile beyond reason to the Bush administration, and ready to believe the worst about American public servants-seem to have concluded that the terror threat is mostly imaginary. It is the threat to civil liberties from George W. Bush that is the real danger. These liberals recoil unthinkingly from the obvious fact that our national security requires policies that are a step (but only a careful step) removed from ACLU dogma.

On Monday, December 19, General Michael Hayden, former director of the National Security Agency and now deputy director of national intelligence, briefed journalists. The back--and--forth included this exchange:

Reporter: Have you identified armed enemy combatants, through this program, in the United States?

Gen. Hayden: This program has been successful in detecting and preventing attacks inside the United States.

Reporter: General Hayden, I know you're not going to talk about specifics about that, and you say it's been successful. But would it have been as successful-can you unequivocally say that something has been stopped or there was an imminent attack or you got information through this that you could not have gotten through going to the court?

Gen. Hayden: I can say unequivocally, all right, that we have got information through this program that would not otherwise have been available.

Now, General Hayden is by all accounts a serious, experienced, nonpolitical military officer. You would think that a statement like this, by a man in his position, would at least slow down the glib assertions of politicians, op--ed writers, and journalists that there was no conceivable reason for President Bush to bypass the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) court. As Gary Schmitt and David Tell explain elsewhere in this issue, FISA was broken well before 9/11. Was the president to ignore the evident fact that FISA's procedures and strictures were simply incompatible with dealing with the al Qaeda threat in an expeditious manner? Was the president to ignore the obvious incapacity of any court, operating under any intelligible legal standard, to judge surveillance decisions involving the sweeping of massive numbers of cell phones and emails by high--speed computers in order even to know where to focus resources? Was the president, in the wake of 9/11, and with the threat of imminent new attacks, really supposed to sit on his hands and gamble that Congress might figure out a way to fix FISA, if it could even be fixed? The questions answer themselves.

But the spokesmen for contemporary liberalism didn't pause to even ask these questions. The day after Gen. Hayden's press briefing, the ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee blathered on about "the Constitution in crisis" and "impeachable conduct." Barbara Boxer, a Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, asserted there was "no excuse" for the president's actions. The ranking Democrat on that committee, Joseph Biden, confidently stated that the president's claims were "bizarre" and that "aggrandizement of power" was probably the primary reason for the president's actions, since "there was no need to do any of this."

o we are really to believe that President Bush just sat around after 9/11 thinking, "How can I aggrandize my powers?" Or that Gen. Hayden-and his hundreds of nonpolitical subordinates-cheerfully agreed to an obviously crazy, bizarre, and unnecessary project of "domestic spying"?

This is the fever swamp into which American liberalism is on the verge of descending.

Some have already descended. Consider Arlene Getz, senior editorial manager at Newsweek.com. She posted an article Wednesday-also after Gen. Hayden's press briefing-on Newsweek's website ruminating on "the parallels" between Bush's defense of his "spying program" and, yes, "South Africa's apartheid regime."

Back in the 1980s, when I was living in Johannesburg and reporting on apartheid South Africa, a white neighbor proffered a tasteless confession. She was "quite relieved," she told me, that new media restrictions prohibited our reporting on government repression. No matter that Pretoria was detaining tens of thousands of people without real evidence of wrongdoing. No matter that many of them, including children, were being tortured-sometimes to death. No matter that government hit squads were killing political opponents. No matter that police were shooting into crowds of black civilians protesting against their disenfranchisement. "It's so nice," confided my neighbor, "not to open the papers and read all that bad news."

I thought about that neighbor this week, as reports dribbled out about President George W. Bush's sanctioning of warrantless eavesdropping on American conversations. . . . I'm sure there are many well--meaning Americans who agree with their president's explanation that it's all a necessary evil (and that patriotic citizens will not be spied on unless they dial up Osama bin Laden). But the nasty echoes of apartheid South Africa should at least give them pause.

Yup. First the Bush administration will listen in to international communications of a few hundred people in America who seem to have been in touch with terrorists abroad . . . and next thing you know, government hit squads will be killing George W. Bush's political opponents.

What is one to say about these media--Democratic spokesmen for contemporary American liberalism? That they have embarrassed and discredited themselves. That they cannot be taken seriously as critics. It would be good to have a responsible opposition party in the United States today. It would be good to have a serious mainstream media. Too bad we have neither.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 10:56 am
McG and Kristol, a match made in heaven Laughing

Anon
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 10:57 am
Quote:
o we are really to believe that President Bush just sat around after 9/11 thinking, "How can I aggrandize my powers?" Or that Gen. Hayden-and his hundreds of nonpolitical subordinates-cheerfully agreed to an obviously crazy, bizarre, and unnecessary project of "domestic spying"?


Yes, I fear so.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 10:59 am
McTag wrote:
Quote:
o we are really to believe that President Bush just sat around after 9/11 thinking, "How can I aggrandize my powers?" Or that Gen. Hayden-and his hundreds of nonpolitical subordinates-cheerfully agreed to an obviously crazy, bizarre, and unnecessary project of "domestic spying"?


Yes, I fear so.


Have some more Kool Aid, McT.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 11:22 am
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
EVEN WHILE Franken has been over there many times to entertain the troops and while, correct me if I'm wrong, Limbaugh has never felt such a need.


Okay, you're wrong: Afghanistan, February, 2005.

Read the article to find out about the hoops he needed to jump through to get that opportunity. He's not, you see, a "liberal" or a "leftist."


Thanks for info. I'm not sure why he had trouble with the hoops where Franken has not. Girth?
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 11:25 am
McTag wrote:
Quote:
o we are really to believe that President Bush just sat around after 9/11 thinking, "How can I aggrandize my powers?" Or that Gen. Hayden-and his hundreds of nonpolitical subordinates-cheerfully agreed to an obviously crazy, bizarre, and unnecessary project of "domestic spying"?


Yes, I fear so.


Frankly, I think he was in shock that the plan worked out so well!!

Anon
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 11:45 am
dyslexia wrote:
Irregardless? bernie you know better!
IRRESPECTIVE OR REGARDLESS BUT NOT Irregardless


You know, I didn't know it. Not sure if I've written the word before or used it before. Had 'regardless' down, then changed it for the euphony of the 'ir' up front. Silly of me not to think it through. And yeah, it was surely irrespective I was thinking of. Thanks, guys.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 12:13 pm
Just to keep on kicking a downed mountie, I'll point out that "Better dead than red" corresponds much better with the Edsel than does "Love it or leave it", the latter more temporally aligns with the Vega.





Sometimes I miss the "good ol' days." :wink:
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 12:46 pm
My brother had a tricked out Vega. Even had an aftermarket 8-track player in it.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 01:11 pm
McTag wrote:

It is worth reflecting that The British in general, and the Scots in particular, have been a light to the world since at least the 17th Century.

You're welcome.

:wink:


Well I agree that the Scittish version of the 18th century Enlightenment was far superior to the Continental one. Apart from that, your "light of the world" must encompass quite a lot, ranging from enforced colonialism and repression of subject peoples, to the Seven Year's War, the Crimean War, the Opium War , the Boer War, the folly of WWI, and more. Quite a lot there for your :wink: to cover. In view of all of this, I am surprised that you are so critical of the United States.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 01:16 pm
blatham wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
EVEN WHILE Franken has been over there many times to entertain the troops and while, correct me if I'm wrong, Limbaugh has never felt such a need.


Okay, you're wrong: Afghanistan, February, 2005.

Read the article to find out about the hoops he needed to jump through to get that opportunity. He's not, you see, a "liberal" or a "leftist."


Thanks for info. I'm not sure why he had trouble with the hoops where Franken has not. Girth?


He has a bad back.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 02:35 pm
heres what bartleby has to say about "irregardless.
----------------------------------------------------------- The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

irregardless

SYLLABICATION: ir·re·gard·less
PRONUNCIATION: r-gärdls
ADVERB: Nonstandard Regardless.
ETYMOLOGY: Probably blend of irrespective and regardless.
USAGE NOTE: Irregardless is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing. Coined in the United States in the early 20th century, it has met with a blizzard of condemnation for being an improper yoking of irrespective and regardless and for the logical absurdity of combining the negative ir- prefix and -less suffix in a single term. Although one might reasonably argue that it is no different from words with redundant affixes like debone and unravel, it has been considered a blunder for decades and will probably continue to be so.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing" - i would consider my entries on a2k as "casual writing" . 'nuff said . hbg
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 12:42 am
georgeob1 wrote:
McTag wrote:

It is worth reflecting that The British in general, and the Scots in particular, have been a light to the world since at least the 17th Century.

You're welcome.

:wink:


Well I agree that the Scittish version of the 18th century Enlightenment was far superior to the Continental one. Apart from that, your "light of the world" must encompass quite a lot, ranging from enforced colonialism and repression of subject peoples, to the Seven Year's War, the Crimean War, the Opium War , the Boer War, the folly of WWI, and more. Quite a lot there for your :wink: to cover. In view of all of this, I am surprised that you are so critical of the United States.


A jaundiced overview, seen through a green-tinged lens. What area of the world has not been improved by our influence? Our biggest venture, USA, is flourishing still, and many lesser ones besides. You are perhaps not unfamiliar with the recent writings of Prof Niall Ferguson. Plenty information there.
And, I do not recognise the "critical of the United States" label you seek to attach to me. "Critical of some of its foreign policy excesses since Grenada" you might more fairly say.
:wink:
Peace on earth, goodwill to men.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 06:08 am
I'm going to post this in full. It is the most concise piece I've read on the dangers flowing from this administration's zest to remove checks and balances to its powers.

Quote:
The Hidden State Steps Forward
by JONATHAN SCHELL

[from the January 9, 2006 issue]

When the New York Times revealed that George W. Bush had ordered the National Security Agency to wiretap the foreign calls of American citizens without seeking court permission, as is indisputably required by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), passed by Congress in 1978, he faced a decision. Would he deny the practice, or would he admit it? He admitted it. But instead of expressing regret, he took full ownership of the deed, stating that his order had been entirely justified, that he had in fact renewed it thirty times, that he would continue to renew it and--going even more boldly on the offensive--that those who had made his law-breaking known had committed a "shameful act." As justification, he offered two arguments, one derisory, the other deeply alarming. The derisory one was that Congress, by authorizing him to use force after September 11, had authorized him to suspend FISA, although that law is unmentioned in the resolution. Thus has Bush informed the members of a supposedly co-equal branch of government of what, unbeknownst to themselves, they were thinking when they cast their vote. The alarming argument is that as Commander in Chief he possesses "inherent" authority to suspend laws in wartime. But if he can suspend FISA at his whim and in secret, then what law can he not suspend? What need is there, for example, to pass or not pass the Patriot Act if any or all of its provisions can be secretly exceeded by the President?

Bush's choice marks a watershed in the evolution of his Administration. Previously when it was caught engaging in disgraceful, illegal or merely mistaken or incompetent behavior, he would simply deny it. "We have found the weapons of mass destruction!" "We do not torture!" However, further developments in the torture matter revealed a shift. Even as he denied the existence of torture, he and his officials began to defend his right to order it. His Attorney General, Alberto Gonzales, refused at his confirmation hearings to state that the torture called waterboarding, in which someone is brought to the edge of drowning, was prohibited. Then when Senator John McCain sponsored a bill prohibiting cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of prisoners, Bush threatened to veto the legislation to which it was attached. It was only in the face of majority votes in both houses against such treatment that he retreated from his claim.

But in the wiretapping matter, he has so far exhibited no such vacillation. Secret law-breaking has been supplanted by brazen law-breaking. The difference is critical. If abuses of power are kept secret, there is still the possibility that, when exposed, they will be stopped. But if they are exposed and still permitted to continue, then every remedy has failed, and the abuse is permanently ratified. In this case, what will be ratified is a presidency that has risen above the law.

The danger is not abstract or merely symbolic. Bush's abuses of presidential power are the most extensive in American history. He has launched an aggressive war ("war of choice," in today's euphemism) on false grounds. He has presided over a system of torture and sought to legitimize it by specious definitions of the word. He has asserted a wholesale right to lock up American citizens and others indefinitely without any legal showing or the right to see a lawyer or anyone else. He has kidnapped people in foreign countries and sent them to other countries, where they were tortured. In rationalizing these and other acts, his officials have laid claim to the unlimited, uncheckable and unreviewable powers he has asserted in the wiretapping case. He has tried to drop a thick shroud of secrecy over these and other actions.

There is a name for a system of government that wages aggressive war, deceives its citizens, violates their rights, abuses power and breaks the law, rejects judicial and legislative checks on itself, claims power without limit, tortures prisoners and acts in secret. It is dictatorship.

The Administration of George W. Bush is not a dictatorship, but it does manifest the characteristics of one in embryonic form. Until recently, these were developing and growing in the twilight world of secrecy. Even within the executive branch itself, Bush seemed to govern outside the normally constituted channels of the Cabinet and to rely on what Secretary of State Colin Powell's chief of staff has called a "cabal." Former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill reported the same thing. Cabinet meetings were for show. Real decisions were made elsewhere, out of sight. Another White House official, John DiIulio, has commented that there was "a complete lack of a policy apparatus" in the White House. "What you've got is everything, and I mean everything, being run by the political arm." As in many Communist states, a highly centralized party, in this case the Republican Party, was beginning to forge a parallel apparatus at the heart of government, a semi-hidden state-within-a-state, by which the real decisions were made.

With Bush's defense of his wiretapping, the hidden state has stepped into the open. The deeper challenge Bush has thrown down, therefore, is whether the country wants to embrace the new form of government he is creating by executive fiat or to continue with the old constitutional form. He is now in effect saying, "Yes, I am above the law--I am the law, which is nothing more than what I and my hired lawyers say it is--and if you don't like it, I dare you to do something about it."

Members of Congress have no choice but to accept the challenge. They did so once before, when Richard Nixon, who said, "When the President does it, that means it's not illegal," posed a similar threat to the Constitution. The only possible answer is to inform Bush forthwith that if he continues in his defiance, he will be impeached.

If Congress accepts his usurpation of its legislative power, they will be no Congress and might as well stop meeting. Either the President must uphold the laws of the United States, which are Congress's laws, or he must leave office.
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20060109&s=schell
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 07:19 am
More crap. Bush has never stated or implied that he was "above the law". He and his staff examined the law and found a way to help keep Americans safe. Some people don't like that and they don't like Bush or Republicans. So, they write garbage like "It is dictatorship." knowing full well they are stretching the hyperbole they want so badly to believe.

It's trash reporting that shouldn't even make the pages of the national Inquirer.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 09:14 am
Now, look, Bernie - we've barely begun undoing the wrongs of The Previous Administration; gonna be a while before we can redress things back to the Roosevelt era even, but we're on our way. I promise we won't tinker much with the Magna Carta though, no matter how strong the temptation.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 09:44 am
McGentrix wrote:
More crap. Bush has never stated or implied that he was "above the law". He and his staff examined the law and found a way to help keep Americans safe. Some people don't like that and they don't like Bush or Republicans. So, they write garbage like "It is dictatorship." knowing full well they are stretching the hyperbole they want so badly to believe.

It's trash reporting that shouldn't even make the pages of the national Inquirer.


Good find, Bernie.

A palpable hit, methinks.
It's telling when they start to bluster, instead of addressing the issues.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 10:08 am
Quote:
Members of Congress have no choice but to accept the challenge. They did so once before, when Richard Nixon, who said, "When the President does it, that means it's not illegal," posed a similar threat to the Constitution. The only possible answer is to inform Bush forthwith that if he continues in his defiance, he will be impeached.


I believe we have this situation now, only many times worse. I wonder when people will get it that when Bush" joked about a dictatorship, he wasn't joking!

Anon
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 10:12 am
McGentrix wrote:
More crap. Bush has never stated or implied that he was "above the law". He and his staff examined the law and found a way to help keep Americans safe. Some people don't like that and they don't like Bush or Republicans. So, they write garbage like "It is dictatorship." knowing full well they are stretching the hyperbole they want so badly to believe.

It's trash reporting that shouldn't even make the pages of the national Inquirer.


McG

You didn't read, or didn't real all, or didn't read carefully.

Bush doesn't have to say "I'm above the law" (and of course, he never would speak such a phrase) to end up precisely in that position. If he is to claim that FISA laws do not apply to him and that he can bypass them secretly or overtly during 'war' by the nature of the powers inherent in the Presidency, then he's there. He's placed the Presidency above any constraints established by that court and the congressional act that put it in place.

One of the FISA judges has expressed the possibility that they might disband the court. That's a coherent logical/legal consequence. If the court's function and reason for being is now erased because Bush is not bound by it, then it has no reason to exist.

The question then becomes quite open - if the Presidency can claim such a legal stature, then what, if any, law at all binds its actions?

We know from Cheney's own admission that enhancing the powers of the Presidency (which logically entails reducing the powers of Congress and the courts) is a policy goal he has had since he worked with Ford. So that ought to suggest that you take a good hard look at how far he's willing to advance this idea and what dangers lie up that road.

And, if you go back and actually read this piece, you'll see a sentence which begins
Quote:
"The Administration of George W. Bush is not a dictatorship..."


That claim, which apparently is the same notion of reality you hold, is followed by the proviso,
Quote:
"but it does manifest the characteristics of one in embryonic form."


If you consider, as some here will, that such an outcome is utterly impossible under any circumstances in the US, you will attribute that impossibility to either checks and balances of the system (which, of course, is precisely the issue) or to the inherent goodness of the people in power now who would never (even if the checks and balances were gone) do something so un-American. Well, America is now torturing people, shipping them for torture and holding them indefinitely without trial. How "American" does all that seem to you? How far are you willing to go?
0 Replies
 
 

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