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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 08:57 am
blatham wrote:
Yeah, pity. The fellow actually said some bright things in that discussion (I watched it) but that last bit you've pasted wasn't one of them.


Maybe we can come to some sort of accommodation with the Europeans, whereas if the CIA is going to torture some high-level al-Qa'ida operative it won't involve European soil or airspace, but non-torture renditions can continue to involve them.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 09:23 am
How do you know a rendition will be followed by the absence of torture? The rationales given (in this interview and elsewhere) for rendition are often specious. Outsourcing torture is clearly a common motive for renditions. European governments cannot trust the US to be honest regarding the cases as they come up. Further, the definition of 'torture' as presently operative in the US out of Woo and others work in the JD is quite unacceptable to European governments' values and laws.

So long as this administration (or any other) continues to deceive and to use definitions for torture that aren't held by any other western government, then you can't get to your solution.
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 09:57 am
What I find interesting is that the same people that raised hell about a leak that released the name of a supposedly covert agent,compromising national security (they claim).

Yet these same people are applauding and celebrating another leak,because it involves something that MIGHT be happening that they dont like.

So I have to ask,are all leaks bad,or are all leaks good?
Saying one is good and another bad is the height of hypocrisy.
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 10:04 am
Hey, mysteryman, we have color now.

Not everything is black and white.

Isn't that like saying there is no difference between telling Mom that your little brother is sticking things in the electrical outlet, or telling Mom he snuck a cookie? Are you being a bratty little tattle tale both times?
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oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 10:08 am
blatham wrote:
How do you know a rendition will be followed by the absence of torture?


Let the Europeans have their own people on-site anywhere on European soil where people are being held. And let them send inspectors to any third-party country that has a European citizen, or a non-European captured on European soil.

The high level al-Qa'ida operatives who are tortured by the CIA can be held on non-European soil. And I don't think any of them are European citizens or were captured on European soil.

Of course, if we did capture a high-level member of al-Qa'ida on European soil, or we captured a high-level member of al-Qa'ida who was a European citizen, we wouldn't be able to reach any agreement with the Europeans in that case.
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 10:09 am
squinney wrote:
Hey, mysteryman, we have color now.

Not everything is black and white.

Isn't that like saying there is no difference between telling Mom that your little brother is sticking things in the electrical outlet, or telling Mom he snuck a cookie? Are you being a bratty little tattle tale both times?


What are you saying?
Are you saying it depends on the degree of the leak?

Wrong is wrong,period!!
There is no black and white in that respect.

But,I guess you are endorsing leaks of classified info,right?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 10:11 am
MM

Some leaks are good and some leaks are not. How do you feel about Goldberg's leak of the Monica matter? How do you feel about leaking the Abu Ghraib pictures?
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 10:15 am
blatham wrote:
MM

Some leaks are good and some leaks are not. How do you feel about Goldberg's leak of the Monica matter? How do you feel about leaking the Abu Ghraib pictures?


There is no such thing as a good leak,period!!!

ALL leaks of classified material or personal info are bad!!!

Is that clear enough for you?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 10:18 am
mysteryman wrote:
blatham wrote:
MM

Some leaks are good and some leaks are not. How do you feel about Goldberg's leak of the Monica matter? How do you feel about leaking the Abu Ghraib pictures?


There is no such thing as a good leak,period!!!

ALL leaks of classified material or personal info are bad!!!

Is that clear enough for you?


What it is is simple-minded enough for you.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 10:21 am
The sensibilities of European governments to human suffering are very interesting things.

Twelve years ago it became impossible to arouse interest or, more importantly, action, on the part of these governments in response to genocide going on before the very eyes of their token (and haplessly inactive) troops and observers in Bosnia and Croatia.

These European governments all favor government-to-government aid to generally corrupt regimes in Africa as a means to reduce human suffering there, but at the same time resist opening their markets to the agricultural products of these countries and even threatening them with trade retaliation if they adopt proven methods for the improvement of their agricultural output through modern hybridization techniques (an amazingly backward view after the success of rice hybrids in eliminating starv ation in South Asia a coupkle of decades earlier.).

These same governments were the colonizers and exploiters of the Moslem world just a few generations ago. Now as we collectively reap the whirlwind they had sowed, their very selective newfound sensibilities generally condemn our actions in response to the attack on us. The unpleasant fact here is that - just as in the Cold War - they know that we have no choice but to resist (and defeat) the forces that threaten both them and us, and that in defending ourselves we have defended them as well. This leaves them in the delightful position of being able to self-righteously condemn our actions while, knowingly at the same time, benefitting from them.

The approval of European governments in issues like this is a commodity that cannot be obtained by us at any price or by any tolerable method. It is therefore a matter of no value to us.
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 10:21 am
blatham wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
blatham wrote:
MM

Some leaks are good and some leaks are not. How do you feel about Goldberg's leak of the Monica matter? How do you feel about leaking the Abu Ghraib pictures?


There is no such thing as a good leak,period!!!

ALL leaks of classified material or personal info are bad!!!

Is that clear enough for you?


What it is is simple-minded enough for you.


So,then I am free to release any of your personal data I might find,things like your address,credit card info,personal history,any criminal background,or anything else I might find?

After all,leaks are ok according to you.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 10:26 am
Look at your last sentence above. Then read my previous post again. You'll note that they say exactly the opposite.

Now, when you begin to take some care in your reading, we can talk again.
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 10:28 am
blatham wrote:
Look at your last sentence above. Then read my previous post again. You'll note that they say exactly the opposite.

Now, when you begin to take some care in your reading, we can talk again.


So,then my leaking that info would be bad?

Why?
whats the difference between leaking info about you or leaking info about how the CIA MIGHT be handling terrorists?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 10:54 am
Or leaking info about congressmen taking bribes?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 11:01 am
FreeDuck, That's a good un. Wink
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 02:28 pm
Quote:
Is the U.S. Casualty Rate Higher Because of the AP?

By Todd Manzi

Dec 8, 2005

The Associated Press has caused some U.S. soldiers to lose their lives. The terrorists know they cannot defeat us militarily. They understand the only way they can win is if our military withdraws because the American people stop supporting the war.

Terrorists are trying to get their message across to us, but instead of issuing press releases, they are killing our troops.

We know how important the will of the American people is regarding the war. Doesn't the will of the terrorists matter also? If their cause looks lost, they will attack less. If they think they have a chance to win, they will attack more. The irresponsible, antiwar-biased reporting from the Associated Press over the last four months can only have encouraged our enemy to keep trying. Terrorists may have been given the false hope that all is not lost for them.

The facts:

The Rasmussen Poll taken July 13th and 14th indicated 44% of Americans thought the U.S. was winning the War on Terror.

Meantime, the AP's August coverage of Cindy Sheehan had an extreme antiwar bias. AP reporters propped up Sheehan and issued dispatches that looked more like editorial commentary than news. Like the terrorists, the antiwar movement was motivated to act based on the prospect of getting press coverage. The AP and the mainstream media claimed people rallied to support Sheehan, but they actually scampered down to Crawford because they knew receptive reporters were waiting to greet them. A news cycle friendly to the antiwar movement was in place, and like moths to a flame, the antiwar zealots flew to Camp Casey.

The antiwar campaign worked. The Rasmussen Poll taken August 10th and 11th indicated a 6% drop down to 38% of respondents who thought we were winning the war. Knowing he had to respond, the president planned an aggressive push for his message. Unfortunately, the hurricanes blew the news cycle in a different direction, and President Bush was forced to wait to make his case.

The president's speech on October 6th at the National Endowment for Democracy marked the beginning of the administration's attempt to counter the damage caused by antiwar reporting in August. The speech was followed by the release of an intercepted letter from our enemy's leadership. A couple of days later, on October 13th, President Bush had a video teleconference with troops in Iraq. The AP did not report anything of substance about the message contained in these three events. Instead, they created a false news cycle regarding the supposed staging of the teleconference.

The effect of AP's antiwar emphasis showed up in the Rasmussen Poll taken October 15th and 16th. There was only a 1% recovery in the numbers: 39% of Americans thought we were winning the war. In early August, Sheehan's antiwar message was packaged for maximum impact, and poll numbers went down. In early October, the president's message was not reported and poll numbers stayed down.

In the coming months, the message of congressional Democrats and the antiwar movement were given maximum media attention. The Senate shutdown, Rep. John Murtha's comments, and constant updates of the U.S. death toll, etc. were touted. Conversely, the AP stifled the president's message. President Bush's October 25th speech, approval of the Iraqi constitution, President Bush's Veterans Day speech, Congress' vote against Murtha, Sen. Lieberman's positive reports from Iraq, etc. were ignored or reported with negative antiwar-bias.

In total, a false impression, a much more negative impression, of American support for the war was conveyed to our enemy. The truth, which could not be ignored, is reflected in President Bush's powerful speech on November 30th. What did the AP think of the speech? "[The] speech did not break new ground or present a new strategy." What did the American people think of the speech? The Rasmussen Poll taken November 30th and December 1st indicates 48% of Americans now believe the U.S. is winning the war. The best explanation for the nine-point bounce from the October poll is clearly that the speech provided new information to a large portion of the population.

Anyone who looks at the events, the news coverage and the Rasmussen polling information must conclude the American people were misinformed about the war. Ironically, if another industry were to under deliver to this extent, it would be news. The AP would be all over it and newspapers would print it.

Newspapers are in a position to hold the AP accountable to objectivity. Even if they are rooting for the terrorists to win, you think they would at least be concerned about the credibility of their product. For some reason, the newspaper industry does not care that the AP is biased. Newspaper editors are like ostriches with their heads in the sand.

I asked Scott Bosley, the executive director of American Society of Newspaper Editors, what he thought about the Associated Press' antiwar bias. Bosely's opinion:

"The AP is not biased. It covers stories episodically, attempting to put them in context."

The consequence of the AP's coverage of the War on Terror: they have allowed themselves to become a pawn of our enemy. The terrorists are as cunning as they are evil, and they have incorporated media coverage as part of their strategy to win the war. Intuitively, the AP and the rest of the mainstream media understand that the promise or hope for press coverage influences behavior. After all, every year the public relations industry spends billions of dollars hoping to position their clients' message in the media.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 02:31 pm
Who is Todd Manzi?

NO surprises here:

O'Reilly, Manzi & Laksin - Three Little Losers Roll in the Mud
In the "how low will Bill go" segment on last night's O'Reilly Factor, Bill O'Reilly did his usual ritual courtship dance with two like-minded, rabid conservatives - Jakob Laksin, an editor and writer for David Horowitz's neo-fascist rag, FrontPage Magazine, and Todd Manzi, journalist and contributor to Human Events Online. In the process it became obvious why he targeted Macarena Hernandez last week. In the course of last night's hate-fest, he used his trumped-up claims against Hernandez and the Dallas Morning News as the justification for virulent attack on Media Matters, MoveOn.org and George Soros. Welcome to the twilight world of right-wing delusion! Watching these three jokers trying to make a story out of whole cloth was, actually, quite funny. They are grabbing at the ghosts of straws these days!
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 02:36 pm
I take it you didn't like his message ...
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 02:53 pm
When the messenger has no credibility... you can decide for yourself.
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 03:11 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
When the messenger has no credibility... you can decide for yourself.


Thats funny,coming from you.
You and the left constantly post articles and opinions from left wing writers and sites,saying that they are credible because they agree with you.

I wonder,have you ever found a conservative writer that disagree's with you that you attach any credibility to?
Somehow,I dont think so.
0 Replies
 
 

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