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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 09:19 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Ten minutes after becoming a manager of anything can't be blamed on that individual - that only requires a little common sense and logic. Where's yours?


If,as some on here have claimed,the president is responsible for EVERYTHING that happens during his term,then that would make him responsible.
Once a candidate wins the election,.they start getting the exact same National security briefings that the sitting Pres gets.
That way,they ARE up to speed.
So,the incoming Pres would be responsible.
Because like some on here have claimed,once a pres is out of office,he is responsible for nothing that happens.

You cant have it both ways.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 09:30 pm
What in hell are you talking about?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 09:32 pm
What was blamed on Bush after he's been in office for 10-minutes, 10-hours, 10-weeks, or 10-months?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 10:51 pm
Quote:
DEMOCRATS URGE DEFEAT
Neil Boortz
12/6/2005

Democrats are finally coming right out and saying exactly what they believe in the debate over the war in Iraq. Yesterday, we heard from DNC Chairman Howard Dean. His stunning statement: we are not going to win the war in Iraq. Dean joins the John Murtha wing of his party which calls for the unconditional surrender of the United States to Islamic terrorists in Iraq. Nice going. I'm sure the terrorists are lifting a cut of goat's milk to Howard Dean today.

This goes beyond politics and strays into the territory of the dangerously partisan. Right now there are 160,000 American troops in Iraq. They are there to fight a war that Congress (including Democrats and Republicans) gave the president support to wage. In just under 3 years, we have liberated Iraq, deposed the dictator there, held elections and drawn up a Constitution. By any measure in the history of warfare, Iraq is a success. In just nine days the Iraqi people will elect their own leaders under their own constitution. Not bad, in spite of what the New York Times and the Democrats want you to believe.

And what about casualties? During the run-up to the war, there were retired generals on TV saying the US faced tens of thousands of casualties in the Iraq war. Since Baghdad fell, that number is a few thousand. Still way too many, but far short of estimates. Despite the wishes of the Democrats, we are winning the war in Iraq.

But Howard Dean wasn't done there. He went on to compare Iraq to Vietnam, even though there is no comparison. He then called for troops to be redeployed. Redeployed, in case you don't know, means withdrawn from Iraq. Last time I checked, Howard Dean wasn't a general in the U.S. Army. He should stick to politics and medicine.

Can you just imagine how the Islamic terrorists and the insurgents must have felt when they heard these words from the chairman of the Democratic Party? These insurgents and terrorists have known for some time now that the Democrats were their friends. Now how must they feel? Not only is the leader of the party demanding withdrawal of American troops, but he's declaring the terrorists to be the winners!

Is there some obscure office at the Democratic National Headquarters where some of the more ardent members of the pro-Saddam crowd are planning for the Democratic delegation to head to Baghdad to celebrate the return to power of Saddam Hussein?

...

SOME THINGS NEVER CHANGE

During his famous testimony in front of the Senate after he came home from Vietnam, John Kerry lied under oath and made all sorts of wild statements about atrocities he never witnessed. Well, now he's doing it again. Sort of.

On CBS' 'Face The Nation,' The Poodle was talking about the troops in Iraq. He was asked by Bob Schieffer about the progress being made there. He once again reached into his past, and pulled out the "atrocities" card:

" ... And there is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the - of - the historical customs, religious customs."

Allrighty then! Perhaps the Senator from France would like to offer up a little proof...and after that, explain why he's bashing the United States Military on national television, other than the fact that bashing our military is just something that seems to come naturally to the Poodle. Just another day in the life of a Democrat. Some things never change...maybe next sKerry will run down to the White House fence and throw back his medals...or ribbons...or medals...or whatever.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 11:03 pm
Let's get this straight; when Howard Dean talks, he talks for the whole democratic party, but there's never one person that speaks for the republicans - even though Bush might contradict Cheney.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 11:07 pm
Thank you for clarifying that, c.i.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 08:34 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
What was blamed on Bush after he's been in office for 10-minutes, 10-hours, 10-weeks, or 10-months?


8 months after Bush was sworn in,9-11 happened.
Are you now saying that wasnt his fault?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 10:19 am
It depends on the expectations of the American People who elected him into office. What we have seen from subsequent events, most determine Bush to be incompetent in everything he touches.

On that basis, we would have to conclude that he must take most of the blame for 9-11. He's a dunce sitting in the white house, but the American People must accept some of the blame too.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 12:23 pm
Quote:
Dean digs Dems a hole
Tuesday, December 6th, 2005

To paraphrase Mark Twain: Suppose you're an imbecile. Now suppose you're Howard Dean. Oops, I repeat myself.

Dean, the Democratic Party boss with the say-anything habit, has outdone himself with his newest foray into fantasy. As usual, his idea is wrapped in false packaging and sealed with slimy innuendo. Here are a few of the whoppers he recently let loose on San Antonio, Tex., radio station WOAI:

# The "idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is just plain wrong."

# "This is the same situation we had in Vietnam. Everybody then kept saying, 'Just another year, just stay the course, we'll have a victory.' Well, we didn't have a victory, and this policy cost the lives of an additional 25,000 troops because we were too stubborn to recognize what was happening."

# "What we see today is very much like what was going on in Watergate. It turns out there is a lot of good evidence that President Bush did not tell the truth when he was asking Congress for the power to go to war."

Vietnam. Watergate. The kitchen sink. His M.O. is apparently to think of the worst things you can say - then say them, facts be damned. But as rancid as his false links to the past are, Dean's plan for the future is downright dangerous.

"I think we need a strategic redeployment over a period of two years," Dean said. "Bring the 80,000 National Guard and reserve troops home immediately. . . . We ought to have a redeployment to Afghanistan of 20,000 troops, we don't have enough troops to do the job there and it's a place where we are welcome. And we need a force in the Middle East, not in Iraq but in a friendly neighboring country to fight [terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi], who came to Iraq after this invasion."

Thank God Howard Dean is not President. Virtually every idea in that paragraph is either false or nuts. But this is the gist of the wackadoo wing's big lies - that terrorism is a direct outgrowth of the Iraq invasion and that Iraq was a workers' paradise before we showed up in our jackboots. Fact: Terrorists attacked Americans repeatedly before the war. As for the prewar conditions in Iraq, Dean & Co. should try their rosy vision on the survivors of Saddam Hussein's torture chambers risking their lives to testify against him.

The only risk Dean is taking is that he'll lead the Democratic Party over the cliff. That is what will happen if the rank and file rallies round his idea.

Dean misreads the understandable public discontent about Iraq as a license to spin fiction and promote retreat. In the process, many Americans will remember why they haven't trusted Democrats on security issues for two generations. To wit, Dems are seen as the party of butter only and as soft on defense. And so while Sens. Hillary Clinton and John Kerry try to distinguish themselves from Bush without actually calling for withdrawal, Dean's rant stamps them as members of the party of retreat.

One more thing: He says his cut-and-run plan is a "strategic redeployment," not a withdrawal.

And he has the nerve to call Bush a liar.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 03:46 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
This is my 10,000th post on A2K.

McGentrix made his 10,000th post 8 days ago. I'm only slightly embarrassed to point out that McG has been a member of A2K over a year and a half longer than I have. Embarrassed I still don't know if there's a prize for attaining this lofty height.

I can't verify it since the membership list is no longer available, but I assume I'm still in the realm of the top fifty, waiting to be passed by Intrepid. Wink



My feelings really haven't changed that much since my 5,000th post (after all, it wasn't that long ago):

[url=http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1388340#1388340]On June 9, 2005, Ticomaya[/url] wrote:
This is my 5000th post on A2K.

This means I am now a "Veteran Member" and am entitled to all that comes with such distinction, whatever that might be. (... now that I mention it, what might that be?)

It also means I am spending altogether too much time on A2K. Which makes me wonder why that is ...

    Is it because I enjoy the interaction with all the friends I've made here? Is it because since I became a member here I have travelled virtually all over the world? Is it because the people here are so nice (... well, most of them.) Is it because I get to chat with people all over the world every day? Is it because of all the caring people who go out of their way to help a fellow poster answer a pressing question? ... or those who go out of their way to get a "dig" in? Is it because of the stimulating debates here in the Politics Forum? Is it because of the good advice dished out in the Relationships Forum? Is it because I like trying to answer the riddles in the Riddles Forum? ... or posting a joke or two in the Humor Forum? Is it because of the Trivia & Word or Music games? ... or the Insult Thread? Is it because we genuinely miss our fellow Atookians when they are absent, and are concerned for their well-being.


It is because of all of those reasons and more. This is certainly my cyber-family. I've tried hard to not be vitriolic in my postings -- I am, after all, the very Paladin of reasonable and courteous discourse at this site -- but I don't always accomplish that. But I hope that those who don't like me do so because they don't agree with my political views ... or my occasionally smug delivery, not because I've been a jerk towards them. I truly hope my presence at this site in the brief time I've been here has affected you in some way -- and preferably for the good. I certainly feel enriched because of my experience.


Cyber-family?

Perhaps so when one realizes how dysfunctional the average family actually is, but it seems to me that cyber-brotherhood, cyber-fealty, cyber-blood feuds etc are something vastly different than their counterparts in reality.

In any case, I enjoy your participation in A2K and if your 10,000th post is something which you find to be of happy significance, I celebrate it with you.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 04:01 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Cyber-family?

Perhaps so when one realizes how dysfunctional the average family actually is, but it seems to me that cyber-brotherhood, cyber-fealty, cyber-blood feuds etc are something vastly different than their counterparts in reality.

In any case, I enjoy your participation in A2K and if your 10,000th post is something which you find to be of happy significance, I celebrate it with you.


Yeah, Finn ... that makes you my cyber-brother.

I enjoy your participation as well. Thanks.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 04:31 pm
SECRETARY RUMSFELD BRIEFS AMERICA'S FREEDOM®-CRUSADERS ON KINDER, GENTLER NEW GUIDELINES FOR INTERROGATING MAYBE-TERRORIST ISLAMIAC TRASH
Policy Statement by the Secretary of Defense
Abu Ghraib Prison, Iraq

SECRETARY RUMSFELD: Good afternoon, troops. I'd like to say I'm pleased to be back here at Abu Ghraib, but I'm not. As you know, a handful of rogue soldiers at this facility, led by a nefarious Lou Diamond Phillips impersonator, demonstrated appalling indiscretion by photographing a highly sophisticated and effective system for sexual humiliation - which they obviously dreamt up entirely on their own, with zero knowledge of or tacit approval by anyone important enough to not be cannon fodder. And so today, with the entire world whipped into a frenzy of righteous indignation, President Bush has personally directed yours truly to fly here to this godforsaken desert armpit to hand-deliver all-new, kinder, gentler guidelines for the non-torture of maybe-probably-terrorist trash. You all stand hereby directed to learn it, live it, and love it. Thank you.

REVISED ARAB INTERROGATION GUIDELINES
Effective May, 2004





CLICK HERE FOR POSTER VERSION OF THESE GUIDELINES
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 08:57 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Let's get this straight; when Howard Dean talks, he talks for the whole democratic party, but there's never one person that speaks for the republicans - even though Bush might contradict Cheney.


I'll remind you of this posting when next you generalize about Republicans.

In any case, of course Dean doesn't speak for the entire Democratic party, but he is at the very least the titular head of that party, and so his comments must carry some weight. (If I'm not mistaken he was elected to his current position and not appointed by Teddy Kennedy.)

If the head any organization makes as bold a statement as Dean has made, it seems to me that a member has two choices:

1) Remain silent and thereby signal that you agree with the head of your organization

2) Speak up; disavow his comments, and state your own opinion.

Nancy Pelosi commented recently that the majority of the House Democrats agree with Murtha's call for immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq.

Certainly the base of a political party is more closely represented in the House then in the Senate.

While it would be erroneous to claim that all Democrats agree with Dean, would it also be wrong to claim that the base does?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 10:09 pm
In Poll, Bush Improves on Economy but Iraq War Looms


By ROBIN TONER
and MARJORIE CONNELLY
Published: December 7, 2005
After months of political erosion, President Bush's approval rating improved markedly in the latest New York Times/CBS News Poll, largely tracking Americans' more positive attitudes toward the economy.

Complete Results: The New York Times/CBS Poll But his presidency is still plagued by widespread doubts about his handling of the war in Iraq, with 52 percent saying the Bush administration intentionally misled the public when its officials made the case for war. A majority of Americans want the United States to set some timetable for troop withdrawal; 32 percent want the number of American troops reduced and 28 percent want a total pullout.

The survey, conducted Dec. 2-6, showed Mr. Bush's approval rating at 40 percent, up from 35 percent a month ago, which was the low point of his presidency. His gains primarily came among men, independents, 18-to-29-year-olds and conservatives. He remains a fiercely polarizing figure, with an approval rating of 79 percent among Republicans, 12 percent among Democrats and 34 percent among independents.
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 12:14 am
Blatham complains that Governor Bush is "fawning" in front of Moon. That would be, if true, unfortunate. Fawning, I was told by my old teacher, means trying to win someone's favor by flattery. Just how Blotham evinced this is unknown, but he is known to throw around adjectives which are entirely unappropriate.

I guess that fawning wouldn't equal the certifiable mess entered into by the corrupt PM-Paul Martin, but for some reason Blatham is silent on the subject of his own country.

Why?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 07:00 am
Bringing the 'fair and balanced' ethic [sic] to this thread...


Quote:
Condi's trail of lies
Condoleezza Rice's contradictory, misleading and outright false statements about the U.S. and torture have taken America's moral standing -- and her own -- to new depths.
By Sidney Blumenthal

Dec. 08, 2005 | The metamorphosis of Condoleezza Rice from the chrysalis of the protégé into the butterfly of the State Department has not been a natural evolution but has demanded self-discipline. She has burnished an image of the ultimate loyalist, yet betrayed her mentor, George H.W. Bush's national security advisor Brent Scowcroft. She is the team player, yet carefully inserted knives in the back of her predecessor, Colin Powell, climbing up them like a ladder of success. She is the person most trusted on foreign policy by the president, yet was an enabler for Vice President Cheney and the neoconservatives. Now her public relations team at the State Department depicts her as a restorer of realism, builder of alliances and maker of peace.

On her first trip to Europe early this year she left the sensation of being fresh by listening rather than lecturing. The flirtation of power appeared to have a more seductive effect than arrogance. So the old face became a new face. But on this week's trip the iron butterfly emerged.

Rice arrived as the enforcer of the Bush administration's torture policy. She reminded the queasy Europeans that their intelligence services, one way or another, are involved in the rendition of hundreds of suspected terrorists transported through their airports for harsh interrogation in countries like Jordan and Egypt or secret CIA prisons known as "black sites." With her warnings, Rice recast the Western alliance as a partnership in complicity. In her attempt to impose silence, she spread guilt. Everybody is unclean in the dirty war and nobody has any right to complain. "What I would hope that our allies would acknowledge," she said, "is that we are all in this together."

For the European leaders, facing publics hostile to U.S. policy in Iraq and torture, Rice's visit was disquieting. In Italy, prosecutors have issued indictments of 22 current and former CIA operatives for their "extraordinary rendition" of an Egyptian suspect; among those indicted is the former Rome CIA station chief, whom an Italian judge has ruled has no immunity from prosecution. Italian Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini, asked about renditions, said, "We know absolutely nothing. We have not one single piece of knowledge." If the Italian government knew the facts, it would investigate, he added.

In Britain, the Foreign Office released a diplomatic disclaimer that it has "no evidence to corroborate media allegations about the use of UK territory in rendition operations." But upset members of the House of Commons have launched a parliamentary inquiry into whether the U.K. has violated the European Convention on Human Rights and the United Nations Convention Against Torture. Foreign Minister Jack Straw sent Rice a letter requesting any "clarification the U.S. can give about these reports in the hope that this will allay parliamentary and public concerns."

When the Washington Post reported on the eve of Rice's trip that CIA prisons holding U.S. detainees exist in Romania, Poland and other Eastern European nations, it triggered an explosion. Even though Romania and Poland denied the report, the European Commission and the Council of Europe began investigations. The E.C. declared that for any member state to harbor a CIA prison would be "extremely serious" and bring down sanctions upon it.

In Germany, Rice was greeted by the new chancellor, Angela Merkel, eager to repair relations with the Bush administration made awkward by former Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's opposition to the Iraq war. Rice's visit was supposed to smooth over the conflicts of the past, but instead it surfaced new ones that indicated that the divisions between Germany -- and Europe -- and the U.S. are rooted in the Bush administration's fundamental policies.

Rice arrived in Berlin on the heels of a Washington Post report about the rendition, to a secret CIA jail in Afghanistan called the Salt Pit, of a German citizen, Khaled el-Masri, who was tortured and imprisoned for five months in a case of mistaken identity. After meeting with Rice, Merkel announced that Rice had acknowledged that the U.S. had made a "mistake" in the case. But Rice countered with a statement denying she had said that at all. The reconciliation with Germany was botched; Merkel was embarrassed; and Rice's credibility, at least in the German press, was left in tatters.

Rice had hoped to quell the controversy before she landed. On Monday, as she boarded her plane at Andrew Air Force base in Washington, she delivered a lengthy statement on torture. Her speech was remarkable for its defensive, dense and evasive tone. It was replete with half-truths, outright falsehoods, distortions and subterfuges.

Her remarks can never sway or convince any European leader, foreign ministry or intelligence service, which have the means to make their own judgments. In her effort to persuade world opinion and reassure the American public, she raised the debate over torture to greater prominence and virtually invited inspection of her claims.

Rice has made memorable statements in the past. There was her appearance before the 9/11 Commission, in which she had trouble recalling the CIA's Presidential Daily Briefing of Aug. 6, 2001, titled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US," and dismissed its significance. There were her many assertions about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons: "We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud." There was her attack on Richard Clarke, the former counterterrorism chief on the National Security Council, for his disclosure that both she and the president did not regard al-Qaida as an urgent threat before Sept. 11, 2001, as a "scurrilous allegation." But her remarks on torture may turn out to be her most unforgettable full-length speech, tainting her tenure as secretary of state as indelibly as Colin Powell's speech making the case for the Iraq war before the United Nations blotted him.

"Torture is a term that is defined by law," said Rice. "We rely on our law to govern our operations." She neglected to explain that "torture" as she used it has been defined by presidential findings to include universally defined methods of torture, such as waterboarding, for which U.S. soldiers were court-martialed in 1902 and 1968 specifically on the basis of having engaged in torture.

But the Bush administration has rejected adherence to the Geneva Conventions as "quaint," in the term of then White House legal counsel and now Attorney General Alberto Gonzales; rejects torture as it is defined in the United Nations Convention Against Torture (although the U.S. is a signatory); and rejects torture as it is interpreted by other international expert bodies, including the European Human Rights Court, whose judgments are binding on the nations of the Council of Europe.

"The United States does not permit, tolerate or condone torture under any circumstances," Rice insisted in her statement. "Moreover, in accordance with the policy of this administration: The United States has respected -- and will continue to respect -- the sovereignty of other countries." But was the kidnapping of the Egyptian suspect in Italy that has resulted in the 22 indictments of CIA operatives a fiction? Have the Italian prosecutors been made aware that the event was a figment of their imaginations? Was holding el-Masri, the innocent German, not a violation of the sovereignty of another country?

Rice continued: "The United States does not transport, and has not transported, detainees from one country to another for the purpose of interrogation using torture. The United States does not use the airspace or the airports of any country for the purpose of transporting a detainee to a country where he or she will be tortured." But the German government was reported to have a list of 400 flights over European airspace for the purpose of renditions. And Amnesty International reports that there have been 800 such flights. Once again, Rice relies upon her own definition of "torture" to deny it.

She went on: "The United States has not transported anyone, and will not transport anyone, to a country when we believe he will be tortured. Where appropriate, the United States seeks assurances that transferred persons will not be tortured." In fact, the U.S. receives assurances from those countries that it would be unlikely that the suspects will be tortured, a technical loophole that provides for a washing of hands. Everybody on all sides understands that there will be torture, as there has been.

Rice's legal interpretations were authoritative, bland and bogus. It is hard to say whether they should be called Orwellian for their intentional falsity or Kafkaesque for their unintentional absurdity.

"International law allows a state to detain enemy combatants for the duration of hostilities," she said. But the administration has vitiated international law with its presidential findings. The "global war on terror" is a conflict without end; its time limit extends into perpetuity. So long as terror is used as a tactic, or the threat of terror exists, which it always does, a state of war, such as it is, justifies indefinite detention.

Then, Rice presented as the administration's position precisely the position it opposes: "Detainees may only be held for an extended period if the intelligence or other evidence against them has been carefully evaluated and supports a determination that detention is lawful. The U.S. does not seek to hold anyone for a period beyond what is necessary to evaluate the intelligence or other evidence against them, prevent further acts of terrorism, or hold them for legal proceedings." But the Bush administration has refused to place detainees within the criminal justice system. Instead, they have been kept in a legal limbo, denied the protections of both the U.S. justice system and the Geneva Conventions. The administration has hid "ghost detainees" from the International Red Cross. If the suspects are criminals, they have not been tried as criminals.

Rice cited two cases to make her point: Carlos the Jackal, the international terrorist captured in Sudan in 1994, and Ramzi Youssef, the 1993 World Trade Center bomber. But, unlike current detainees, both were put on public trial, Carlos in France, Youssef in the United States. And the European Commission on Human Rights issued a report that Carlos' rights were not violated. Both cases refuted in their particulars the larger argument Rice was making.

One case Rice did not cite was that of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, a captured al-Qaida operative, whose claims about Saddam Hussein's possession of WMD were used by the administration to build the case for the Iraq war. "We've learned that Iraq has trained Al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases," President Bush said on Oct. 7, 2002, drawing on al-Libi's information. Al-Libi also provided the basis for a dramatic high point of Secretary of State Powell's U.N. speech: "the story of a senior terrorist operative telling how Iraq provided training in these weapons to Al Qaeda. Fortunately, this operative is now detained, and he has told his story. I will relate to you now, as he himself, described it." But al-Libi had been tortured and repeated to his interrogators what they had suggested to him. The Defense Intelligence Agency reported in February 2002 that al-Libi's information was dubious, and the CIA also questioned its credibility in a report in January 2003 -- both reports made before the war. Rice's various statements created a pandemonium across Europe that she tried to quiet with a clarification Wednesday in Ukraine. The policy she had just declared we did not follow she announced we would no longer pursue. "As a matter of U.S. policy, the United States' obligations under the CAT [U.N. Convention Against Torture], which prohibits cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment -- those obligations extend to U.S. personnel wherever they are, whether they are in the United States or outside of the United States," Rice said at a press conference with Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko.

Rice's erratic journey also raises the question of her own part in the policy. The Washington Post story on el-Masri reports that Rice intervened on the side of informing the German government, a disclosure that resulted in el-Masri's release. This fact suggests that Rice has a degree of authority and knowledge in the realm of detainees and "black sites."

Since 2003, Rice has repeatedly told representatives of Human Rights Watch and other similar organizations that the U.S. does not torture. There is no trail of memos tracing her involvement in the titanic struggle over U.S. torture policy between Powell and the senior military on one side and Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and John Ashcroft's Justice Department on the other. Was the national security advisor completely out of the loop? On Nov. 19., ABC News reported, "Current and former CIA officers tell ABC News there is a presidential finding, signed in 2002, by President Bush, Condoleezza Rice and then-Attorney General John Ashcroft, approving the [harsh interrogation] techniques, including waterboarding."

That technique has its origin in the Spanish Inquisition. Indeed, in 1490, a baptized Christian who was a secret Jew, a converso named Benito Garcia, was subjected to water torture. The process drew out of him a confession of the ritual murder of a Christian child by crucifixion to get his blood for a magic ceremony to halt the Inquisition and bring about Jewish control. The incident greatly helped whip up the fear that led to the expulsion of the Jews in 1492, as described by James Reston Jr. in his new book, "Dogs of God: Columbus, the Inquisition, and the Defeat of the Moors."

Since the Inquisition, the method of waterboarding has been little refined. But Rice, like Bush, says we did not and will not torture anymore.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2005/12/08/condi/print.html
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 08:20 am
A belated congratulations to Tico and McG for their 10000th posts as I do consider both to be friends and appreciate their contributions to A2K.

Just an observation on speaking up, however. In the last several months I've listened to conservative media spokespersons such as Hannity, Reagan, Savage, Noonan, Inghram and others rip the GOP for abandoning or corrupting various conservative principles, and President Bush has not come through unscathed. Mind you, each of these would still vote for Bush again against anybody the Democrats have seriously put up for consideration, but these conservative voices are speaking out with valid criticisms as well as defending the defensible.

I don't believe I've heard any Democrat talking head, media or otherwise, criticize any Democrat for the outrageous stuff the say, their lack of vision or plan despite their continuous litany of defamation and criticism. Maybe some liberals here on A2K have actually said something against the Democrats, but if it has ever happened, it must be extremely rare and I missed it.

What does this say about the integrity of each or the principles each brings to the table? Or do liberals really believe that Democrats are above all reproach no matter what they say or do?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 08:41 am
blatham wrote:

Quote:
Rice arrived as the enforcer of the Bush administration's torture policy. She reminded the queasy Europeans that their intelligence services, one way or another, are involved in the rendition of hundreds of suspected terrorists transported through their airports for harsh interrogation in countries like Jordan and Egypt or secret CIA prisons known as "black sites." With her warnings, Rice recast the Western alliance as a partnership in complicity. In her attempt to impose silence, she spread guilt. Everybody is unclean in the dirty war and nobody has any right to complain. "What I would hope that our allies would acknowledge," she said, "is that we are all in this together."
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2005/12/08/condi/print.html




The "you're either with us or against us" doctrine has returned:
    From the very end of this transcript: [URL=http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/july-dec05/rendition_12-5.html]http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/july-dec05/rendition_12-5.html[/URL] "...because certainly if you cannot transfer individuals over European air space then essentially the Europeans have taken themselves out on the war on terror and aligned them selves against us."
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 08:50 am
Yeah, pity. The fellow actually said some bright things in that discussion (I watched it) but that last bit you've pasted wasn't one of them.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2005 08:54 am
Bernie: You said "fair and balanced" and followed with an article from Sidney Blumenthal from salon.com. I nearly choked on my coffee. Laughing

Good one.
0 Replies
 
 

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