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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 09:01 pm
Would have been so much better if he hadn't been.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 09:02 pm
He wasn't. Kerry lost.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 09:59 pm


Economy is in the dumps. As it always has been since Bush slinked into office.


Note the economists from the Census Bureau.
Census Bureau wrote:
The median earnings of both men and women who worked full-time, year-round declined in 2004.......

......The official poverty rate for the nation rose from 12.5 percent in 2003 to 12.7 percent in 2004.

The number in poverty increased also, by 1.1 million people, to 37.0 million in 2004.
Source.

People who work full time have declining earnings. More than a million more poor people than the preceding year.

This is Just Wonders' idea of a vibrant economy.

All hail George Bush, who does his best to make sure the poor are never eliminated as a demographic. Razz
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 07:09 am
kelticwizard, quoting a press release by the Census Bureau wrote:
The median earnings of both men and women who worked full-time, year-round declined in 2004.......

I do not doubt thisis true; but at the same time, the same people's houses appreciated in value, and so did their savings, if they were invested in stocks and bonds. The statistic you quote does not contain this information. Real GDP growth does, to some extent. Hence it is a better indicator of how people are doing in general.

In my opinion, George Bush had barely anything to do with either trend, the stagnation of real wages or the capital gains during his reign. They both began under Clinton and continued after he left office. They reflect a fairly sudden productivity increase that happened because more and more industries figured out how to make information technology to their advantage. This trend opens up new investment opportunities, drives up profits, and decreases the wages of unskilled labor. This trend would have happened whoever occupies the White House. Clinton and Bush just happened to preside over it.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 09:51 am
Thank you Thomas. The other consideration is that unemployment is steadily declining. When you have the unemployed re-entering the work force or entering for the first time, they of course are going to be starting at mostly entry level wages, and that of course is going to lower the median income. It doesn't mean that those who were in the median income before have lost ground. It just means that a whole lot more people are working, and that is because of a good economy. There may be something to what Thomas says about the unkilled labor thing too--I'm not up on that--but I do know we have millions of illegals in the country many who are working at very low wages. I'll let the President take his share of the rap for that.

I agree with Thomas that the President and Congress has little to do with the economy EXCEPT that lowering taxes and interest rates invariably boosts economic growth and raising taxes and interest rates can slow it down.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 10:57 am
Thank you Thomas. It is also important to consider millions of new jobs, most entry level, which would naturally lower the median wage. Those in the median aren't losing ground--in fact wages are mostly up.

Factored into this are millions of illegals many of whom are working at substandard wages. I do give previous and present administrations and Congress lumps for that situation.

I agree that neither Presidents nor Congress have significant impact on the economy EXCEPT that eliminating oppressive regulation, lowering taxes and interest rates, and providing other incentives for business does spur economic growth, usually significantly. So a business-friendly administration can have an effect. In truth, however, they usually don't deserve the lion's share of the credit nor the blame they receive for the state of the economy.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 11:08 am
Thank you Thomas. Also factored into the equation are the millions of new jobs, many at entry level, that are naturally going to bring down the median. It isn't that the former median group has lost ground or has not gained ground, but the median is now figured on a larger curve.

I do think a business-friendly administration and Congress can stimulate economic growth with lower taxes, lower interest rates, and other incentives, but I agree that Presidents and Congress usually get too much credit or too much blame for the state of the economy.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 11:09 am
Okay I've tried to post three message in response to Thomas's post now, and none have gone through. What's happening?
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 11:32 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Okay I've tried to post three message in response to Thomas's post now, and none have gone through. What's happening?


I see three different responses to Thomas from you. What do you see?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 11:33 am
Well, all and every single one is posted:

at 15:51 GMT, 16:57 GMT and 17:08 GMT, all (slightly) different.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 11:37 am
So it being the first of the month I drove down to the grocery and then the gasoline station and finally the public utilities dept (gas and electric) and offer them all payment for this past months bill. In fact I offered them an approprite share of the inhanced value of my house. The didn't seem interested.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 11:46 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, all and every single one is posted:

at 15:51 GMT, 16:57 GMT and 17:08 GMT, all (slightly) different.


http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/9268/clipboard12fi.jpg
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 12:03 pm
Okay this is weird. I have a national insurance program on my computer that is updated every six months. It expired in October and they don't have the new updates to me yet, so to use the program I have to set my computer date back to September. This resets my desktop calendar and other stuff and apparently affects whatever I do on the message board too. Every time I posted I got the 'successful post' message, but couldn't see it on the message board. When I reset the computer date back to today, all the messages show up and now also all your responses.

Sorry about that folks. I learned something. I think.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 08:52 pm
Nothing to worry about Foxfyre.

The software itself results in so many duplicate posts that one triple post doesn't even make it above the radar. Laughing
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 09:09 pm
Yes, but this may be the first triple-post on A2K with 3 unique posts. :wink:
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2005 11:51 am
Quote:
November 2, 2005
The NY Times Distorts a Dead Marine's Words[/size]
By Michelle Malkin

When you read The New York Times (if you still bother to read it), always ask:

What is the Times NOT telling me?

The answers are invariably more compelling -- and newsworthy -- than what the paper actually deems "fit to print."

Let me give you an example.

Last Wednesday, the Times published a 4,624-word opus on American casualties of war in Iraq. "2,000 Dead: As Iraq Tours Stretch On, a Grim Mark," read the headline. The macabre, Vietnam-evoking piece appeared prominently on page A2. Among those profiled were Marines from the First Battalion of the Fifth Marine Regiment, including Cpl. Jeffrey B. Starr. Here's the relevant passage:
    [i]Another member of the 1/5, Cpl. Jeffrey B. Starr, rejected a $24,000 bonus to re-enlist. Corporal Starr believed strongly in the war, his father said, but was tired of the harsh life and nearness of death in Iraq. So he enrolled at Everett Community College near his parents' home in Snohomish, Wash., planning to study psychology after his enlistment ended in August. But he died in a firefight in Ramadi on April 30 during his third tour in Iraq. He was 22. Sifting through Corporal Starr's laptop computer after his death, his father found a letter to be delivered to the marine's girlfriend. ''I kind of predicted this,'' Corporal Starr wrote of his own death. ''A third time just seemed like I'm pushing my chances."[/i]
The paper's excerpt of Corporal Starr's letter leaves the reader with the distinct impression that this young Marine was darkly resigned to a senseless death. The truth is exactly the opposite. Late last week, I received a letter from Corporal Starr's uncle, Timothy Lickness. He wanted you to know the rest of the story -- and the parts of Corporal Starr's letter that the Times failed to include:
    [i]"Obviously if you are reading this then I have died in Iraq. I kind of predicted this, that is why I'm writing this in November. A third time just seemed like I'm pushing my chances. I don't regret going, everybody dies but few get to do it for something as important as freedom. It may seem confusing why we are in Iraq, it's not to me. I'm here helping these people, so that they can live the way we live. Not have to worry about tyrants or vicious dictators. To do what they want with their lives. To me that is why I died. Others have died for my freedom, now this is my mark."[/i]
Reader Michael Valois questioned the Times' reporter, James Dao, about his selection bias and forwarded me the exchanges. A defensive Dao (who did not respond to my e-mail inquiry) argued "there is nothing 'anti war' in the way I portrayed Corporal Starr." Dao then had the gall to berate the reader:
    [i] "Even the portion of his email that I used, the one that you seem so offended by, does not express anti-war sentiment. It does express the fatalism that many soldiers and marines seem to feel about multiple tours. Have you been to Iraq, Michael? Or to any other war, for that matter? If you have, you should know the anxiety and fear parents, spouses, and troops themselves feel when they deploy to war. And if you haven't, what right do you have to object when papers like the New York Times try to describe that anxiety and fear?"[/i]
Mr. Dao sounds a bit unhinged playing the far-left chickenhawk card. Only people who have traveled to Iraq can criticize a paper's war-related coverage?

And Dao's dead-wrong about Corporal Starr's presumed "fatalism." If you don't believe Corporal Starr's own words, which Dao chose to ignore, listen to Corporal Starr's father, Brian. I asked him this week whether his son was fatalistic. "I don't agree at all. Jeff had an awareness of death, but was very positive about coming home."

Dao apologized to Valois for the tone of his snippy e-mail, but apparently feels no shame or sorrow for distorting a dead Marine's thoughts and feelings about war, sacrifice and freedom.

Will the Times correct Dao's grave sin of omission and apologize? Or will the paper just hope you shrug and look the other way?
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2005 12:36 pm
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2005 12:43 pm
Quote:
Joe Wilson's 60 Minutes
Another media outlet falls to the Plame storyline without so much as a whimper.

by Thomas Joscelyn
11/02/2005 12:00:00 AM

EVEN BEFORE THE INDICTMENT of Lewis "Scooter" Libby last week, many in the mainstream media had already settled on a simple storyline. Valerie Plame's identity was blown, the story goes, by administration officials seeking retribution against her husband, Joseph Wilson. Wilson is often portrayed as a brave "whistleblower," who had the courage to stand up to an administration that "lied" its way into war.

There is, perhaps, no better illustration of how entrenched this misleading storyline has become than this past Sunday's episode of 60 Minutes. In a segment fronted by correspondent Ed Bradley, a host of Wilsonian memes were broadcast without even the slightest bit of skepticism.

THE SEGMENT BEGAN with a misleading question: "Would someone in the government go that far, leak her [Valerie Plame's] name to the press, in retaliation for her husband's public criticism of the war in Iraq?" But, Wilson was not merely "criticizing" the war in Iraq, a democratic right that should be protected, as this opening question implied. His "critique" was pure fantasy, a tale woven around his own classified trip to Africa.

As has been shown countless times, no substantive part of Wilson's story was true. A bipartisan Senate Intelligence Report made this clear in July 2004 (see, for example, here and here.) To hear 60 Minutes tell it, you would never even know that this report existed. The Senate Intelligence Report was not mentioned and Bradley did not ask Wilson a single question about his bogus charges. Instead, for the umpteenth time, Wilson was allowed an unchallenged opportunity to tell his version of events.

By ignoring the numerous deficiencies in Wilson's account, Bradley ignored one of the more salient questions in this story: Why was a CIA officer, Wilson's wife, complicit in his lies? The Senate Intelligence Report makes it clear that Valerie Plame orchestrated Wilson's trip to Africa and attended at least part of his CIA debriefing. She was, therefore, most certainly in a position to know that her husband's accusations were false.

Why did she not stop him from spreading his falsehoods?

In fact, much of the media's coverage of the war in Iraq has been shaped by former and current CIA personalities with their own, not impartial, motives. Countless leaks and anonymous comments have shaped front-page stories over the last several years. An ever-growing bevy of former CIA officials have also gone public to state their cases against the Bush administration and the war in Iraq. (See, for example, here and here.)

The 60 Minutes piece did not give the viewer any sense that perhaps the entire Wilson-Plame affair was part of a turf battle between members of the CIA and the Bush administration. Instead, in addition to Wilson, Bradley turned to two former CIA officials and a Democratic congressman for their assessments of "how serious was the damage done by the leak." The witnesses offered no real evidence of any further collateral damage done by the leak, but instead dealt with hypothetical examples.

THE FIRST OF THE FORMER CIA OPERATIVES was Jim Marcinkowski, who is now an attorney in Royal Oak, Michigan and who, 60 Minutes tells us, "was a covert CIA agent spying in Central America" in the late 1980s. Marcinkowski's attention was drawn to the faux CIA front company, Brewster-Jennings & Associates, which Plame listed as her employer when she and her husband contributed $1,000 each to the Gore campaign in 1999. "There is a possibility that there were other agents that would use that same kind of a cover," he explained, "So they may have been using Brewster-Jennings just like her."

But how difficult would it have been for a foreign intelligence service to discover that Brewster-Jennings was really a CIA front company? As it turns out, it was not very difficult at all.

The company's existence was entirely fictional and the CIA did not do a very good job making it look real either. The lone piece of data that Washington Post could find on the company in 2003 was a listing in the Dun & Bradstreet database of company names. But the Post's reporters found that the company's telephone number was not in service and when they contacted the property manager for the address listed, they found that no company with that name was located there. Robert Novak, the reporter who originally reported Plame and her firm's real identities, also quickly became "convinced" that no such firm existed.

Fooling family members and friends is one thing, fooling foreign intelligence operatives is quite another. Good front companies have at least a nominal existence and are not fictions easily revealed by reporters.

Wilson called the leaking of his wife's name and her fictional employer's true purpose "abominable." He further explained, "But when he [Robert Novak] published her name, it was very easy to unravel everything about her, her entire cover. You live your cover. And so you live Brewster-Jennings. So, she would have had business cards that said Brewster-Jennings on them. So, that was just insult to injury."

But if Wilson and his wife were so concerned about her cover, and possibly the cover of other agents, being blown, then why did he publish an editorial in the New York Times discussing a classified intelligence-gathering mission he went on? Why did he then go on to make many media appearances peddling his own fictional version of his mission? Did Wilson think that foreign intelligence services would not do a little background work on him, his family, and all of their ostensible connections? Ed Bradley was not interested in answering any of these questions.

The 60 Minutes segment further argued that the leak "gives America's enemies clues about how the CIA operates." Marcinkowski explained, "[Valerie Plame] is the wife of an ambassador, for example. Now, since this happened, every wife of an ambassador is going to be suspected. Or they'll know there's a possibility that the wife of a U.S. ambassador is a CIA agent."

But, it is doubtful that this affair revealed any new information about the CIA's tactics. This country's enemies have long known that covert operatives are seeded in the ranks of embassies and other diplomatic offices around the world. This has been the standard operating procedure for intelligence services as long as nations have practiced the art of espionage. In fact, one of the main reasons the CIA did not have better and more human intelligence assets in the Taliban's Afghanistan and Saddam's Iraq was that there was no formal diplomatic presence in those countries from which to operate.

It is a safe bet, too, that the family members of U.S. diplomats and ambassadors, especially those who write fictional accounts about their classified intelligence-gathering missions in the world's most famous newspaper, are immediately suspected as well.

For further speculation on the effects of the Plame leak, Bradley turned to Democratic Congressman Rush Holt, who serves on the House Intelligence Committee:

Bradley asked the leading question, "Is it possible that someone overseas, someone is going to jail because of this?"

Holt replied, "Sure, it's possible."

Bradley then led a little further, "Is it possible that somebody lost their life?"

Holt replied, "It's possible. I don't know."

Thus, according to 60 Minutes, not only did the outing of Valerie Plame destroy her career--an act of retribution against a man who dared to criticize the war in Iraq--it also possibly led to other agents being imprisoned or even killed. Such speculation is certainly designed to leave the viewer even more enraged over this whole affair.

None of this is meant to excuse any alleged wrong-doing on Scooter Libby's part. Nor should the outing of any CIA operative be taken lightly. But, behind the 60 Minutes version of events lies a host of unanswered questions.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2005 04:38 pm
Read this on American Thinker:

Quote:
    [i]We went to war because Bill Clinton told the truth. The Dems would now have us believe that we ought to consider everything Mr Clinton said was a lie. If Mr Bush lied, it was because he relied on the lies of Mr Clinton. Presidents rely on each other when it comes to protecting the homeland. [/i]
There you go. Said about as succinctly as can be said. Either Bill Clinton told the truth about WMD, and Bush believed him. Or he lied about WMD, and Bush believed him.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2005 05:00 pm
Goddam, ticoyama. Do you actually hold Clinton responsible for this war?
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