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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 07:48 am
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
blatham wrote:
# of anti-war demonstrators in DC.... 100,000

# of pro-war demonstrators next day.... 400

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-War-Rally.html


And this means that Americans opposing the war in Iraq outnumber those who support it by a ratio of 25,000 to 1?

I'm a little surprised they could only muster 100,000. Was it raining?


Word got out early that the pot-cookies were bad.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 07:49 am
ps...how's the mouth? And I don't even have a joke behind that question.

I'm now just getting rid of the rockin pneumonia. And I broke a toe. Life is a rich tapestry.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 08:47 am
More fun with the NYTimes and their failure to get people to pay to read their columnists.

Quote:
Republicans and right-wingers should sign up now and pay for it, just so NYT management think it's a success and keep it going.

The conservatives could inspire themselves with the thought that they were in essence paying to erect a barrier between the NYT's would-be opinion-shapers and a public that might all-too-easily have its opinions shaped. ... Once the Times columnists' "status as megapundits" has slowly ebbed away,

[t]hen, and only then, Karl Rove can give the word and everyone will stop subscribing to TimesSelect. It won't matter then if the embargo comes down, because people will have gotten along fine without their daily dose of the NYT's correct enlightened thinking.


More (LOL) at link.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 09:06 am
This proves that even when the New York Times gets it wrong -- and they frequently do -- that doesn't mean they will issue a correction later:

Quote:
The Public Editor
Even Geraldo Deserves a Fair Shake

By BYRON CALAME
Published: September 25, 2005

ONE of the real tests of journalistic integrity is being fair to someone who might be best described by a four-letter word.

The New York Times flunked such a test in rejecting a demand by Geraldo Rivera of Fox News for correction of a sentence about him in a column by the paper's chief television critic.

The underlying issue arose from the penultimate paragraph of Alessandra Stanley's TV Watch column on Sept. 5 about the coverage of Hurricane Katrina: "Some reporters helped stranded victims because no police officers or rescue workers were around. (Fox's Geraldo Rivera did his rivals one better: yesterday, he nudged an Air Force rescue worker out of the way so his camera crew could tape him as he helped lift an older woman in a wheelchair to safety.)"

Mr. Rivera denied that he had "nudged" anyone and demanded that The Times publish a correction. Mr. Rivera and Fox said a videotape of the segment that Ms. Stanley had watched on Sept. 4 shows no nudge. The segment was then rebroadcast on "The O'Reilly Factor" on Fox, and a videotape has been made available to The Times and other media outlets.

Lashing out at Ms. Stanley on the O'Reilly show, Mr. Rivera denounced her as "Jayson Blair in a cocktail dress," referring to the young reporter who brought scandal to The Times in 2003. If her name were Alexander instead of Alessandra, the flamboyant newsman said during another appearance, "I'd go to that building on 43rd Street; I'd shout up to the window, 'Hey, come on down here, punk. I want you to tell me that to my face.' "

The Times informed Fox on Sept. 7 that no correction would be published. Bill Keller, the executive editor of The Times, personally made the final decision after "multiple viewings of the videotape in question," he told me in a Sept. 8 e-mail message that defended his ruling and was later provided to other journalists.

Several dozen readers - including some who said they aren't admirers of Mr. Rivera - have questioned the fairness of The Times's decision and asked the public editor to look into it.

I have been involved in scores of correction disputes over the years at another newspaper, but this one is unusual in that there is very little to argue about. Since Ms. Stanley based her comments on what she saw on the screen Sept. 4, the videotape of that segment means everyone involved is looking at exactly the same evidence.

My viewings of the videotape - at least a dozen times, including one time frame by frame - simply doesn't show me any "nudge" of any Air Force rescuer by Mr. Rivera. (Ms. Stanley declined my invitation to watch the tape with me.) I also reviewed all of the so-called outtakes shot by Mr. Rivera's camera crew at the Holy Angels Apartments in New Orleans on the morning of Sept. 4. Neither the video nor the audio revealed any nudge of an Air Force rescuer.
As for the Air Force, the matter "is not an issue," a spokesman told me last week.

Stripped of its speculation in defense of Ms. Stanley, Mr. Keller's e-mail to me explaining his decision winds up acknowledging that the "nudge" she reported seeing is not shown in the videotape. Here, with my emphasis added, is that key paragraph of his e-mail:

"It was a semi-close call, in that the video does not literally show how Mr. Rivera insinuated himself between the wheelchair-bound storm victim and the Air Force rescuers who were waiting to carry her from the building. Whether Mr. Rivera gently edged the airman out of the way with an elbow (literally 'nudged'), or told him to step aside, or threw a body block, or just barged into an opening - it's hard to tell, since it happened just off-camera."

So if Ms. Stanley couldn't have seen the nudge, why not publish a correction? Mr. Keller's message unfortunately turns to a line of reasoning that raises, for me, a basic question of journalistic fairness. He suggests, "frankly," that in light of Mr. Rivera's reaction to the review, Ms. Stanley "would have been justified in assuming" - and therefore writing, apparently - that Mr. Rivera used "brute force" rather than merely a "nudge" on Sept. 4. (One of the on-air threats cited by Mr. Keller, however, actually was made by Bill O'Reilly.)

I find it disturbing that any Times editor would come so close to implying - almost in a tit-for-tat sense - that Mr. Rivera's bad behavior essentially entitles the paper to rely on assumptions and refuse to correct an unsupported fact.

Mr. Keller's final reason for rejecting a correction was that Ms. Stanley, "who is writing as a critic, with the license that title brings - was within bounds in her judgment." He elaborated: "Ms. Stanley's point was that Mr. Rivera was show-boating - that he was being pushy, if not literally pushing - and I think an impartial viewer of the footage will see it that way."

Based on the videotape and outtakes I saw, Ms. Stanley certainly would have been entitled to opine that Mr. Rivera's actions were showboating or pushy. But a "nudge" is a fact, not an opinion. And even critics need to keep facts distinct from opinions.

Meanwhile, in the opinion section of The Times, the corrections policy of Gail Collins, the editor of the editorial page, is not being fully enforced. As I have written on my Web journal, Paul Krugman has not been required to correct, in the paper, recent acknowledged factual errors in his column about the 2000 election in Florida.

The Times has long been a trailblazer in its commitment to correcting errors. This is no time to let those standards slip - even when well-known critics and columnists are involved.

...


The public editor serves as the readers' representative. His opinions and conclusions are his own. His column appears at least twice monthly in this section.


Copy of the video in question can be seen ... HERE.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 09:09 am
The new rules take effect immediately and will "standardize the management of news and information" in the country, the official Xinhua News Agency said Sunday.

Sites should only post news on current events and politics, according to the new regulations issued by the Ministry of Information Industry and China's cabinet, the State Council. The subjects that would be acceptable under those categories was not clear.

Only "healthy and civilized news and information that is beneficial to the improvement of the quality of the nation, beneficial to its economic development and conducive to social progress" will be allowed, Xinhua said.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 09:25 am
In Nazi Germany, you could buy some foreign newspapers with different opinions nearly until the war started at major railway stations - all the other newspapers were just re-printing reports from the Goebbels propaganda maschine.

In the GDR, you were send 10 years to prison, when you read a not allowed newspaper.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 09:39 am
Ticomaya wrote:
This proves that even when the New York Times gets it wrong -- and they frequently do -- that doesn't mean they will issue a correction later:


Of course not. Remember, this is the same newspaper that gave free reign to the likes of Jayson Blair for 3-1/2 years. :wink:
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 09:56 am
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
blatham wrote:
# of anti-war demonstrators in DC.... 100,000

# of pro-war demonstrators next day.... 400




http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-War-Rally.html


And this means that Americans opposing the war in Iraq outnumber those who support it by a ratio of 25,000 to 1?

I'm a little surprised they could only muster 100,000. Was it raining?


No, the rich folks won't get out of their cars and walk.

Perhaps of they organised an SUV and limo rally instead of a march.... Smile
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 02:32 pm
re New York Times:

European media and blogs have covered this as well, (especially conservative blogs) pointing out that this will happen in Europe as well, since newspapers are outdated.

Serious reports about it refer to the 2004 Club of Amsterdam Report;

Quote:
Circulation is either static or falling in most EU member states, and has been for some years. Declines are steady rather than dramatic. Other media are growing in reach; this may leave newspapers at a competitive disadvantage. ... The number of titles is though declining over the long term. This is part of the same structural trend.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 02:39 pm
To peggy-back on dys' post, the Chinese government has restricted all personal comment web sites in China, and only allow officially approved news licensed media to be used on the internet.

I think we're beginning to experience some of that in this country, the USA.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 02:54 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
To peggy-back on dys' post, the Chinese government has restricted all personal comment web sites in China, and only allow officially approved news licensed media to be used on the internet.

I think we're beginning to experience some of that in this country, the USA.


How so?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 04:02 pm
Yeah really Tico, I agree with you. I don't see anything here in the US similiar to whats happening in China. What I do see here is the avid desire to limit or reduce various news sources to only those that present "my" point of view. Just wonders posts, with glee, the layoff of 500 workers from NYT as if this were a good thing. The good thing being less NYT with assuming correspondent increase in the publishing of a single point of view. I find this far more frightful and indeed dire for the US of A than China's blantent restrictions because it denotes and attitude of the populace not wanting to hear many and assorted points of view.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 04:27 pm
Soon it will be nothing for our government to do to us what it's been perfecting on others around the world "protecting our freedom". They won't see any difference between us and them. Their too far gone to turn back now.

"Those who put the peoples eyes out reproach them of their blindness"
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 04:32 pm
dyslexia wrote:
Yeah really Tico, I agree with you. I don't see anything here in the US similiar to whats happening in China. What I do see here is the avid desire to limit or reduce various news sources to only those that present "my" point of view. Just wonders posts, with glee, the layoff of 500 workers from NYT as if this were a good thing. The good thing being less NYT with assuming correspondent increase in the publishing of a single point of view. I find this far more frightful and indeed dire for the US of A than China's blantent restrictions because it denotes and attitude of the populace not wanting to hear many and assorted points of view.


You think that if a population rejects a particular point of view, that is far worse than if a communist dictatorship imposes its will upon the people? Shocked
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 04:40 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
Yeah really Tico, I agree with you. I don't see anything here in the US similiar to whats happening in China. What I do see here is the avid desire to limit or reduce various news sources to only those that present "my" point of view. Just wonders posts, with glee, the layoff of 500 workers from NYT as if this were a good thing. The good thing being less NYT with assuming correspondent increase in the publishing of a single point of view. I find this far more frightful and indeed dire for the US of A than China's blantent restrictions because it denotes and attitude of the populace not wanting to hear many and assorted points of view.


You think that if a population rejects a particular point of view, that is far worse than if a communist dictatorship imposes its will upon the people? Shocked
Who will be the judge of the difference?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 04:43 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
Yeah really Tico, I agree with you. I don't see anything here in the US similiar to whats happening in China. What I do see here is the avid desire to limit or reduce various news sources to only those that present "my" point of view. Just wonders posts, with glee, the layoff of 500 workers from NYT as if this were a good thing. The good thing being less NYT with assuming correspondent increase in the publishing of a single point of view. I find this far more frightful and indeed dire for the US of A than China's blantent restrictions because it denotes and attitude of the populace not wanting to hear many and assorted points of view.


You think that if a population rejects a particular point of view, that is far worse than if a communist dictatorship imposes its will upon the people? Shocked

Nice try Tico, but, no cigar. What I clearly said was "
Quote:
correspondent increase in the publishing of a single point of view
." meaning that I do find worse to be the reduction of various points of view to "popular" points of view. Perhaps you would prefer less varity in points of view, I finds that to be consistent with "communist dictatorship."
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 04:48 pm
Man, Tico. You just got laid out. Laughing But it's rude for me to be here. I'm leaving.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 04:48 pm
Tico writes
Quote:
You think that if a population rejects a particular point of view, that is far worse than if a communist dictatorship imposes its will upon the people?


If you took what they are saying at face value, those on the left, the socialistic minded, the anti-Bush crowd, and those that are just plain angry at everything do in fact want a media that reflects their point of view.

If you take what those on the Right are saying, they favor a media that presents all points of view equally and leaves the interpretation open. We used to have that from presumed reputable media sources. I don't think it's too much to ask now or to hope that the NY Times and a few other excessively biased media sources will recognize that and clean up their act.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 05:58 pm
Quote:
If you take what those on the Right are saying, they favor a media that presents all points of view equally and leaves the interpretation open

The closest we have to that in the US of A is PBS News Hour. which apparently is despised by those on the right. For the sake of honest debate let's operate under the premise that all media are biased and then proceed to the leftist agenda that all media in the gestalt of information prefer as many and as varied points of view as possible from the few hundreds or thousands readers of the Daily Worker to the NYT, Christian Science Monitor, My Weekly Reader, Readers Digest, Playboy, MaxNews, Fox News etc. Whereas we have the rightest agenda of limiting, reducing, elimiting points of view inconsistent with their ideologies. We, indeed, have applause from such as Just Wonders, Foxfyre and Tico applauding "populism" repeately under the guise of "majority rules democracy." Balderdash I say. I want, I demand, every possible slant on news I can find and I will sift though the **** rather than have the "popular" just telling me what **** I will eat.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 06:23 pm
Yeah, this administration is good at punch lines like "if you're not with us, you're against us." Then Bush and Powell: First Bush and now Powell have threatened that UN Security Council by stating
that "it ... against Israel for decades, has that made the UN insignificant? ..." Or, how about "I'm a uniter, not a divider." And there's "bring them on."
0 Replies
 
 

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