Bush Foresaw 0 war casualties

Im not an expert by any means.

My experiances are based on real life being there and knowing what it means to "wear the boots" so to speak.

There are many misconceptions by people who never served, that get their info from the press or people that havent served but know what it means to serve.

Prime example: Calling a stop-loss program a back door draft which it is not. Even on your enlistment contract it states certain things that would blow that description to bits and I have yet to see any media source or politician explain that in its entirety.

I have always maintained in my posts that those are my opinions based on real life experiances serving in the military 12 years and deploying 3 times...

Its hard for any military person to have people that never served say thingsa that are not based on facts... If I believed everything I have heard in the news regarding the military...

Put it this way... please give me all my uniforms and dont make me buy them... please give me the free childcare we supposedly get, and please provide these cheaper than economy tax free stores we also supposedly get, because you know what? none of that is true.

Tax free shopping on post? hmmm I guess if you consider a 5% surcharge on everything you buy that is more expensive than shopping off post... not true

Free daycare (or subsidized) Dont we wish... childcare off post averages 55 dollars a week cheaper....

Free uniforms? sure when you first come in as a private, and then once a year you get around 400 dollars in uniform allowance. The pt uniforms alone for a full set costs almost 200.00, BDUS 70.00, socks 5.00 a pair, brown t-shirt 5.00... swaet in it a coupel of times and it turns yellow... not to mention everything else...

And it gets a bit irritating that someone who has never served an hour in the military that they somehow know more than people who have....

Oh and no I wasnt a general I worked for a living... thanks for asking I was a SSG(p)

Don't sweat it armyvet35. I get grief from other users because I haven't served in the military.

If you are a conservative, it's a lose-lose situation apparently...

That's all really interesting Armyvet, and I can see you feel strongly about that, but you are making a gigantic generalisation that nobody who hasn't served knows anything about the military or war. Quite the contrary there are a great many people who have not served but who have been to war zones and know plenty about war. Some of us even have a pretty good imagination as to what is required of a soldier to fight.

No-one here is making any argument regarding the military and I certianly would not feel qualified to remark on the job that's being done by soldiers anywhere. As well, you were in the all volunteer army as a medic during the popular first gulf war. So, just for example, you would not be qualified to pass judgment on someone who was in the navy thirty years ago during an unpopular war with a draft in place.

I don't know what people you are speaking of who are saying the things that you've refuted, but as soon as someone says those things on this forum you are certainly qualified to shoot them down.

It's difficult to espouse continual military action and refuse to commit oneself to said course of action. Smacks of hypocrisy (not you in particular, McG).

That's why conservatives take heat for not serving.

Cycloptichorn

Speaking of commitment...you'll never see this story in the NYTimes. To me, it gives a new meaning to "Profiles in Courage".

------------------------------------------------------------

By Carla McClain
ARIZONA DAILY STAR
Tucson, Arizona
9/24/04

LOCAL DOCS IN IRAQ: 2 TUCSON SURGEONS SIGN UP TO AID GIS

Leaving behind a thriving career, a young family and a safe and comfortable life, the chief of surgery at Tucson Medical Center - Dr. James Balserak - has thrown himself smack into harm's way, in the middle of the Iraq war.

Admitting some have called him nuts while others react with awe, he tries to explain why he is now, by choice, in the most dangerous place on the planet for an American.

"I think of the young men and women who could have made it home but didn't because they lacked a skilled surgeon to care for them in the field. … If I could help just one injured serviceman or woman come home safely, then this mission is accomplished," said Balserak, 40, in an e-mail this week from Baghdad International Airport.

It is there, in a hot, dusty, scorpion-infested tent city at the heart of a violent, embattled country that Balserak now lives and works on soldiers wounded in combat, sometimes flying out on medical evacuation and search-and-rescue missions. At all times, he must wear body armor and a Kevlar helmet - to chow, chapel and the latrines. Rocket and mortar fire put him to troubled sleep.

It is a very long way from the impeccably scrubbed hallways, peaceful, flowered patios and state-of-the-art operating rooms of Tucson Medical Center.

"I had to pronounce (the deaths of) two U.S. Army soldiers two nights ago," he wrote on Monday, only a week after he arrived in Iraq. "I will never forget that vision … ever. I looked at the pictures of their children, their wives and girlfriends, their pets as part of going through their personal effects. This war became very real to me then. I couldn't do anything for those two men, but I know we will do EVERYTHING for anyone who comes to Camp Sather, Iraq. War isn't hell - it's a lot worse than that."

Then, a couple days later, he sent a photograph of a bloody young man on the operating table at Camp Sather - the modern-day MASH unit at the Baghdad airport that serves as a front-line trauma center for combat-injured. This is the way it's supposed to go, Balserak said.

"He was comforted and surrounded by smiling faces as you can see," he wrote of the soldier. "He did fine. He'll be awarded a Purple Heart and will make it home to see his family, his children. That is what this is all about."

"Not a Fourth-of-July patriot"

Although the decision to volunteer - in fact, pull strings - to go to Iraq may seem baffling, it is not to those who know Jim Balserak well.

Embedded in a military family - the son of a Vietnam veteran and retired U.S. Army colonel, the brother of an Air Force fighter pilot who just returned from missions in Iraq - Balserak is a colonel and state air surgeon for the Arizona Air National Guard, which he has served for years when he is not in the operating room.

"If you knew Jim the way I know Jim, you would realize really quickly he is probably the most patriotic person you will ever meet," said his wife of 16 years, Kristi, who confesses she isn't terribly happy about her husband's move. "This is not a Fourth-of-July patriot. Love of country is the absolute core of his belief."

But even so, Balserak admits he thought the idea of uprooting himself from all that is secure - and especially from his two young sons, ages 9 and 6 - to go to war was a bit round-the-bend, at first.

Credit for getting him there, he says, goes to another young Tucson surgeon, father of two, and fellow Air National Guard officer, Dr./Lt. Col. Eric Kendle. To make the whole thing acceptable to their worried families, Kendle will split the four-month tour of duty in Iraq with Balserak, taking his place at Camp Sather in mid-November, when Balserak is due to return home.

A trigger, literally, for their action was the combat death this spring of professional football star Pat Tillman. Motivated by 9/11, the Arizona Cardinals' safety also gave up a safe and lucrative life to go fight, in Afghanistan, where he paid the ultimate price.

"That's when he (Kendle) started suggesting he and I find a way to come over here," Balserak said. "I thought he was nuts, at first."

"Time to get involved"

Also a military brat and deeply patriotic, Kendle, 42, said, "Well, maybe I am nuts - many have told us both we're crazy, and a whole lot of other things. But I told Jim I was going to do it, it was time to get involved."

Speaking quietly but passionately, Kendle said, "I've been in the military for 12 years, and what have I done? Yes, I've been trained, and I've taken care of our pilots, but I haven't done anything that makes a difference for the security of our country.

"My hope is that we will make a difference by making the world a safer place, and that our children, my sons, will not have to do this themselves. But if they must, their decision will be made in light of the service they saw their own fathers and mothers give in their time."

Well aware of the intense controversy raging in this country over whether Iraq is the right war at this time, whether it is truly part of the war on terror linked to 9/11, both Kendle and Balserak can and do argue that it is. The bottom line, they say, is that U.S. soldiers are fighting and hurting and dying in Iraq, and they have the skills to help them.

"We know they need good, qualified surgeons there, and the Air Force guys, the surgeons, are getting burned out," said Kendle. "They go in for 18 months and they go back again. They're using them over and over.

"If I can give these guys a Thanksgiving or a Christmas home, and I have to miss one, well, it's the right thing to do. If I can help these 18- and 19-year-olds who are being hurt, that's an easy call."

"The fear never leaves you"

But it was not exactly an easy call on the home front. Kendle remembers spending three hours one morning with his frightened and crying wife, Margie, explaining as best he could this decision that threatens his life. He remembers his youngest child, Zachary, 10, grabbing his leg and holding on for five minutes, asking why, over and over, when his father told him. He talked of a family member who called him selfish for putting his family through this.

"I think most of the family understands now," he said. "Margie is not thrilled, but she knows if I don't do this, I will never feel right about it."

Although she, too, has come to accept her husband's decision, Kristi Balserak said she now knows what it is to live with fear, all day, every day.

All it took was an e-mail glitch this week to put her through a miserable, sleepless night.

"I hadn't heard from him all day, and my e-mail kept getting returned. Why? Horrible thoughts go through your head. The fear never leaves you," she said.

At the airport the day Jim Balserak left Tucson for Iraq, his 6-year-old, Kevin, would not say goodbye, but instead kept asking, "Are you gonna die over there, Daddy?" his father said.

"I told Kevin our soldiers would be protecting me," he said.

What has comforted Kristi Balserak tremendously is the "amazing outpouring of support" from friends, neighbors, anyone who knows her situation.

"The support is universal"

However, there is no way around the fact that losing the chief of surgery, even for a few months, is going to be no picnic for TMC, and not easy on a city that right now has no surplus of surgeons.

"It's tough on us - it's going to be a scramble," said TMC's chief medical officer, Dr. Richard Rodriguez. "But we respect what he's doing and we support it, even if it does leave us a bit short-handed."

Balserak's partners, at Southwestern Surgery Associates, describe this time without him as "supporting the war effort."

"Oh, sure, we're all taking extra calls and extra nights," said surgeon Dr. Daniel McCabe. "But we're doing it without complaining. When we look at what he's doing, we can't."

Although physicians' opinions come down on all sides of this war, the support for Balserak and Kendle is "universal," McCabe said.

Noting that Balserak has worked on 12 or 13 "very badly injured kids" in recent days, with at least two killed, McCabe said, "He's in harm's way. He's in the middle of it.

"Tell him to please be careful. Jim, be careful."

You won't see this story in the NY Times because it's not news JW. It's patriotic kitsch meant to mask the pain of bloody operating tables and understaffed mash units trying to find some meaning to this war.

Maybe Armyvet can explain why surgeons are burning out...maybe it's because we just weren't prepared for the bloodletting.

"We know they need good, qualified surgeons there, and the Air Force guys, the surgeons, are getting burned out," said Kendle. "They go in for 18 months and they go back again. They're using them over and over."

I may not be able to say how it was serving in Nam.

But in my opinion I feel as a vet I am allowed to question kerrys service record, due to the fact his awards dont match his service, something reeks bad from a vets point of view and his his actions afterwards, and that concerns me considering I have a husband slated to go back to Iraq that questions it as well. My dad and father in law are vets of nam. My father was Navy for 21 years and my father in law Air force and they did multiple full length tours to nam.

My problem is this... I know alot of Lifer vets that served that question it. I was a career soldier until my duties as a mom and wife started to interfere with my soldiering and multiple deployments between my husband and myself since he was active duty as well started ruining our marriage. One of us had to get out of the military and do the right thing. Was a tough decision to get out with 12 years in, but its also not in my nature to have anyone else I was stationed with have to pick up my slack...

We do question it and we do question his integrity about it . We do feel he is hiding something because he refuses to at least set our minds at ease by doing such a simple thing...It may not matter to you what he did 30 years ago to his fellow soldiers, but to people in the military that have their lives on the line and depend on their commrades in battle... trust is something you must have. and the soldiers just dont have it for Kerry.


In Iraq my husbands Batallion commander (a Kiowa Pilot) who was one of the soldiers hit in the Qwest motar attack didnt get a purple heart or any award, and he almost died. And Kerry gets a few scratches and gets 3.... so that is where I am coming from. Not to mention some nam vets not getting much. A V device on a bronze star, we also knows what it takes for that let alone the silver star. We know the regulations covering awards... I have filled out the paperwork on many in my 12 years for soldiers under me.

I wouldnt call any of my deployments popular ones, nor on any level of a veitnam. My family and my husband who served 13 months in Iraq and 8 in afghanistan also question Kerry service and unlike people who dont talk about it unless its a poltical election year to us it has been part of family discussions on a regualr basis throught the years and throughtout deployments of multiple family members that have served or who are still serving. My dad and father in law are registered democrats btw They are voting for bush.

I said I would respect that Bush and Kerry served on the same level to which I feel both of their service records cancel eachother out. So comparing their service and finding one or the others service highly commendable I would disagree.

Strange that you don't apply the same level of critical review to Bush's record....

You should at least be fair.

Cycloptichorn

Panze want me to expalin why people feel the need to serve? Everyone has their own personal reasons and you just cheapened 2 Americans call to duty for their own personal reasons...

Im not surprised....

Patriotic wish wash crap? Or the need to do something for someone else.....

And no you wouldnt here that in the NY Times... because good people dont make the headlines....

Panz just because you wouldnt make that sacrifice... doesnt mean others wouldnt ....

The military isnt for everyone is it....

Noone was cheapened...

but there is a difference between human interest stories and news reporting. One is a critical examination of the facts, the other is a puff piece designed to lighten the heart and make you feel good.

There's nothing wrong with it; it just shouldn't be compared to actual news reporting.

Cycloptichorn

I understand that what's inspirational to me could be seen as patriotic kitsch to others. Knowing that, I continue to be in awe of the sacrifice of these men and their families. Their's is but one story in a virtual sea of such stories. You won't see any of them in the NYTimes.

tip toes out of the thread

You say this, but then every chance you get you ridicule Kerry's service. So far you've convinced me that vets are questioning his record. Of this I'm aware. The people who served closest to Kerry, the ones who would know best what he was like when the sh** went down, admire and respect him. That means more to me than any "he must be hiding something because there's no evidence of anything" argument. Again, as a vet in the army some 30 years later you don't have much more insight into either man's records than I do. And we all certainly have a right to question the record of any man running for president, but absent any specific reason to disregard the official records that have been released, they ought to be let stand on their own and we ought to move on.

JW, you took a cheap shot at a liberal newspaper and you know it and I know it. It really had nothing to do with the following article.

The fact is, I knew you and AV would get crusty over my post. "Panzade is unpatriotic" and you went from there to "Panzade doesn't know how to or is unwilling to volunteer or SACRIFICE." Well you don't know that, and unless you DO know that, I wouldn't suggest it.

Being military or ex military has nothing to do with it. People from both sides have served honorably, but still disagree on many fundamentals regarding Iraq. I was in the military; some of the Republicans on this thread are or have been in the military. So what?

hehe....

Actually free... there are people on both sides that served with kerry, but only the democrats believe kerry supports not the others....

Crusty eh? naaa

Panz...
Looking at everything surrounding the vets there is more that question kerrys service than support it...

Who is right? just the people that support kerry of course because everyone else that does question it is a bunch of traitorus liars

Hard to believe that all those people on active duty that question his record, all those vets, and yes people that even served with him are liars yet for some reason his 201 file is held as top secret...

What is he hiding....

He can be a hero or a zero by releasing them..

If he was lying then he will be the biggest zero ....

If he was telling the truth then he will be vindicated as being honest....

His reluctance to do it tells me which is true....

As far as the news media is concerned good stories dont sell, just the bad... I havent seen on the news any good out of iraq though people that have spent over a year there could tell you the "real truth"

Panz...I agree with you about the cheap shot, but if it's really how I feel about the NYTimes is it really all that cheap? I really, really wish just once they'd stop being such harbingers of doom.

I emphasized "sacrifice", but it wasn't directed at anyone or meant to be "crusty". It's difficult for me to speak of sacrifice in any context, and in emphasizing the word I was actually thinking of the firemen and policemen and their bravery on 9/11.

Here's what I should have said:

"Panz - I know that what is seen as inspirational to me isn't going to be seen that way by everyone, but just thought I'd share."

I still think the NYTimes has plenty of "soft" news, but it's just slanted toward their own agenda which doesn't include any good news coming out of Iraq.

There is good news from Iraq and I read about it almost every single day. Just not in the NYTimes.

JW didn't take a "cheap shot." Just simply stated a fact. Has the NY Times ever published a story on the front page that was anything but critical of the war, or that gave any impression other than the war is going badly? I doubt it. There are many good things going on in Iraq, but the NY Times won't be telling you about any of them. Are we supposed to believe that is because those stories aren't "news," and not that it is the liberal bias of the rag?

You have to realize that many of those who are questioning Kerry, ArmyVet, have a <gasp> hidden agenda!

I wish people would just be straight up and say that they don't like the fact that he was actually willing to imply that American soldiers perpetrated atrocities, and that this was well known by the higher-ups. Unfortunately, there is a large amount of evidence showing this to be true... yet there are those who would silence the voice of truth in the name of patriotism...

I don't blame them; I just think that going after Kerry's record in an effort to discredit him is disingenuous, when their true problem is with what he did AFTER the war.

Cycloptichorn