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Sat 26 Nov, 2016 12:09 am
@tsarstepan,
Can't say I'll miss the murdering bastard.
I remember when he issued an invitation to men of the United States to join in the overthrow of Batista. My brother told me we were offered $100. Then the time in New York. He left chicken feathers all over the place in the hotel room. I always considered it a mistake to so isolate Cuba. His calling himself communist and seizing the tax shelter properties of USA businesses made it inevitable, I suppose. He was in my view no worse than Batista.
@edgarblythe,
Oh yeah. I think we can credit Batista with his success. Still, I bet the Castros and Che Guevara killed more Cubans than he.
@edgarblythe,
Quote:Then the time in New York. He left chicken feathers all over the place in the hotel room.
I remember that incident with clarity. He was in New York for an appearance on the Ed Sullivan show, I think. This was right at the pivot point where the US shifted gears from support of him to the opposite.
Here in Canada, we were spared the absolutisms promulgated by the CIA and those functioning at their behest (like the Readers Digest) so we had a more measured and sober response to the fellow.
@tsarstepan,
Great news. I hope there will not be a power struggle for a new leader.
@seac,
Not enough dead from wars already. Why not?
@blatham,
Canadians and other non-Americans have a very different perspective on Cuba/Castro et al than many Americans.
I wonder if, in part, it has to do with the very different set of Cuban immigrants/refugees we get - as well as the ongoing tourism/friend/work relationships that have developed over the past decades - without American mediation.
A very good friend travelled to Cuba to do her social work practicum about 35 years ago. She moved there permanently about 32 years ago - worked in Cuban radio for a couple of decades. She fell into it because of her non-accented mid-Atlantic English. If what she suggests is true, there is a possibility that Cuba could go the Bermudas/Bahamas direction, instead of becoming another Haiti. I certainly hope so.
My father's former employer, a Canadian life insurer, has maintained a presence in Cuba all of these decades. People are still hoping to get the gig making that office active again - there's a fair lump of money sitting there.
@blatham,
blatham wrote:
Here in Canada, we were spared the absolutisms promulgated by the CIA and those functioning at their behest (like the Readers Digest) so we had a more measured and sober response to the fellow.
He executed hundreds of thousands, exiled many more and condemned Cuba to a remoreeless tyranny and poverty that continues today. I don't believe Canadians were spared the knowledge of all that.
How is it that "here in Canada" you were spared all that stuff then and yet now remain oddly fascinated with our domestic politics??? Does that "measured and sober" stuff get a bit boring?
Would you call your Prme Minister's fawning statement today "measured and sober"?
Robert Reich
These two statements responding to the death of Fidel Castro tell you more about the people who made them than about Castro.
Here is President Obama's:
“At this time of Fidel Castro’s passing, we extend a hand of friendship to the Cuban people. We know that this moment fills Cubans - in Cuba and in the United States - with powerful emotions, recalling the countless ways in which Fidel Castro altered the course of individual lives, families, and of the Cuban nation. History will record and judge the enormous impact of this singular figure on the people and world around him. For nearly six decades, the relationship between the United States and Cuba was marked by discord and profound political disagreements. During my presidency, we have worked hard to put the past behind us, pursuing a future in which the relationship between our two countries is defined not by our differences but by the many things that we share as neighbors and friends - bonds of family, culture, commerce, and common humanity. This engagement includes the contributions of Cuban Americans, who have done so much for our country and who care deeply about their loved ones in Cuba. Today, we offer condolences to Fidel Castro's family, and our thoughts and prayers are with the Cuban people. In the days ahead, they will recall the past and also look to the future. As they do, the Cuban people must know that they have a friend and partner in the United States of America.”
***
Here’s President-elect Trump’s:
"Today, the world marks the passing of a brutal dictator who oppressed his own people for nearly six decades. Fidel Castro’s legacy is one of firing squads, theft, unimaginable suffering, poverty and the denial of fundamental human rights. While Cuba remains a totalitarian island, it is my hope that today marks a move away from the horrors endured for too long, and toward a future in which the wonderful Cuban people finally live in the freedom they so richly deserve. Though the tragedies, deaths and pain caused by Fidel Castro cannot be erased, our administration will do all it can to ensure the Cuban people can finally begin their journey toward prosperity and liberty. I join the many Cuban Americans who supported me so greatly in the presidential campaign, including the Brigade 2506 Veterans Association that endorsed me, with the hope of one day soon seeing a free Cuba."
***
Whose statement is generous, positive, and empathic? Whose is hostile, negative, and narcissistic?
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
Whose statement is generous, positive, and empathic? Whose is hostile, negative, and narcissistic?
Whose statement is larded with self-congratulations and euphamisms, and whose expresses the raw truth of the matter?
@georgeob1,
Who wants to perpetuate strife and revenge, just as the two nations have been thawing?
@edgarblythe,
I don't believe that Obama's "thaw" has any significance, or is worth preserving. There is truly nothing there, and the regime that has tyranized the Cuban people for the past 53 years has made no constructive changes as a result of it.
Certainly it has done nothing to promote the most basic of freedoms; a reduction in the number of political prisioners the regime holds; or an escape from poverty for the Cuban people. The Socialist Paradise the Castros created operates more like a family fiefdom than a government of the people. It was subsidized by a Soviet Union that couldn't sustain itself for about thirty years and has fallen into poverty since then. Cuba sympathizers complain that the U.S. Embargo has held it back: that is demonstrably false. Cuba doen't produce anything that others want in sufficiuent quantity, and has no money with which to pay for imports. It won't allow free enterprise and as a result gets zero investment from others. As long as Cuba remains in the hands of the backward tyrants who rule it now, nothing can be done for it.
@edgarblythe,
Excellent question.
Gotta wonder who in the US would benefit from war.
Trick question eh.
____
____
Quote:Matthew Chapman (@fawfulfan)
2 hours ago - View on Twitter
Let me get this straight. Obama can't issue a totally neutral statement on Castro, but it's OK for Trump to praise Putin and Saddam?
This will make things entertaining.
http://www.politicususa.com/2016/11/26/vladimir-putin-throws-water-trumps-condemnation-fidel-castro.html
Quote:Trump loves Putin, hates on Castro, while Putin points out "Castro was a sincere and reliable friend of Russia.”
__
I get that Americans have had a different experience with Cuba/Cubans than Canadians /others, but the Trump reaction was just pathetic.
___
mulling more
maybe it makes sense
it's like the memorial threads here ... who is neutral/courteous? who isn't ?
it's been pretty reliable over the years
@ehBeth,
No one is talking about war but you and Edgar. Cuba's fate rests with the people of Cuba.
I don't recall mentioning war, but now that somebody did, Bush and Obama killed far more innocent persons than Castro. They destroyed some societies too.
@edgarblythe,
We won't mention operation Northwoods then.
Or operation Ajax.
@georgeob1,
Quote:Cuba's fate rests with the people of Cuba.
Raul Castro has had the reins for about a decade.
Things seem to be progressing to plan.
@seac,
seac wrote:
Great news. I hope there will not be a power struggle for a new leader.
Raul Castro is still firmly in power. If Castro died a couple of years ago while he was president then a power struggle might be an issue.
I'm hoping that Raul will moves towards democratizing the government (buy I doubt he will). Now that Fidel is gone, Raul may have a weaker grip on the country.
It is hardly as if the US has not supported (or even put in place) a rather large number of brutal dictators who killed off their citizens. Iran, the Phillipines, South and Central America, Iraq, Asia, etc.
As Beth and I have noted, Canadians and Americans have long had quite a different perception or set of ideas about Cuba and Castro. But it seems obvious to me that this was/is a consequence of Cold War propaganda which infected the US far more than our country, Cuba being just one example. This is likely not even evident to most Americans because though we attend to US media, few Americans attend to ours so there's no way for most Americans to compare the differences.
As to executions, here's the wikipedia entry:
Quote:Political executions[edit]
Various estimates have been made to ascertain the number of political executions carried out on behalf of the Cuban government in Cuba since the revolution. According to Amnesty International, death sentences from 1959–87 numbered 237 of which all but 21 were actually carried out.[19] The Cuban Government justified such measures on the grounds that the application of the death penalty in Cuba against war criminals and others followed the same procedure as that seen in the trials by the Allies in the Nuremberg trials. Some Cuban scholars maintain that had the government not applied severe legislation against the torturers, terrorists, and other criminals employed by the Batista regime, the people themselves would have taken justice into their own hands.[20]
Latin American historian Thomas E. Skidmore says there had been 550 executions in the first six months of 1959.[21] British historian Hugh Thomas, in his study Cuba or the pursuit of freedom[22] stated that "perhaps" 5,000 executions had taken place by 1970,[21] while The World Handbook of Political and Social Indicators ascertained that there had been 2,113 political executions between the years of 1958–67.[21]
Professor of political science at the University of Hawaii, Rudolph J. Rummel estimated the number of political executions at between 4,000 and 33,000 from 1958–87, with a mid range of 15,000.[23]
One estimate from The Black Book of Communism is that throughout Cuba 15,000–17,000 people were executed.
The vast majority of those executed following the 1959 revolution were policemen, politicians and informers of the Batista regime accused of crimes such as torture and murder, and their public trials and executions had widespread popular support among the Cuban population. Scholars generally agree that those executed were probably guilty as accused, but that the trials did not follow due process.[24]
Good data here on repression of dissent, etc. And if you want to do a quick comparison of a US supported fellow, here's the entry on Pinochet
http://bit.ly/2fB8itW
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