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What IS it with the USA and Cuba?

 
 
dlowan
 
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 05:52 pm
OK- doubtless I should know this - and feel free to cast nasturtiums and animadversions upon me for not knowing - but why does the USA still impose sanctions on Cuba? Why were there ever sanctions - surely a country is entitled to have a revolution - you folk did!

How come you still have troops on Cuba - Guantanamo IS on Cuba, right?

This isn't an invite to a fight - I really don't understand, and I would like to.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 06:54 pm
Cuba is an embarrassment to a great power (also the exiled cubans in florida VOTE)
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 07:01 pm
dlowan - I've never been able to understand it. I guess dyslexia has some good points. But, still....
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Lash Goth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 07:16 pm
I'm thinking Cuba's involvement with the USSR's attempt to point nukes at us circa JFK may be a bit of a reason.

I think more to the point is Cuba is Communist. This is all well and good, and their choice. It becomes our business when their failed Communism starts costing us our Capitalist dollars. If Communism is such a good lifestyle, why do they need our money? Its like mom and dad financing Junior's crackhouse. I'm not paying for what they've got going on over there. Not if I have a say so.

Plus, the place is a prison. Only the homosexuals and HIV carriers are allowed out...and are shipped to our shores.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 07:35 pm
er, only homosexuals and HIV carriers?

communism doesn't threaten us directly and I would think that the soviet bases are no longer a threat either.

If it's a prison, why do so many people go there to vacation?
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Lash Goth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 07:42 pm
Is my information old? I remember when the only Cuban people, who were allowed out were those I mentioned.

I remember the huge influx of criminals (a group I forgot), gays and HIV infected people in Miami. We had to build them a shelter city.

Sure, getting in and spending money is OK. Getting out has posed a pretty serious problem. People have been killed trying to escape. Has this changed?
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 07:47 pm
For nearly 40 years we have prohibited trade with Fidel Castro's communist Cuba and for nearly as long, Castro has been the chief beneficiary of our policy. Because we have acted alone, our sanctions policy has done little to influence Castro's behavior. Other nations around the world have stepped in to fill the gap in a market that was once dominated by the U.S. Instead of bringing Castro to his knees economically, we have strengthened him politically. U.S. sanctions are the heaviest artillery in Castro's propaganda war against the United States.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 07:50 pm
The Mariels, Lash? So named from the prison they were released from.

I don't know either Deb. First, I can't remember a single instance of economic sanctions having a desirable effect on any country. China is the largest communist country remaining in the world, and we trade like crazy with them. Maybe it's Ricky. You ever hear Ricky Ricardo sing Babaloo? That's it. Keep 'em all in Cuba.

Guantanamo naval base is leased from Cuba and has been since before the revolution. It was a 99 year lease, but was renewed long before the original expiration date. Until the lease expires, we will keep it.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 07:53 pm
Oh, a sidelight on Mariel. Ernest Hemingway named one of his two daughters Mariel because it was a place of great beauty (pre Castro). Margeau, the other daughter was named after a Burgandy from Chateau Margeau.

Well, I thought everyone would like to know that?
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pueo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 07:54 pm
hopefully relations will improve once castro is out of the picture. too much animosity has developed over the years to make any meaningfull progress with castro still at the helm.

as far as the gay question, after the "revolution" homosexuals were arrested and put in prison. don't know the current status regarding this.
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Lash Goth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 08:01 pm
as far as the gay question, after the "revolution" homosexuals were arrested and put in prison. don't know the current status regarding this.

Castro's 'excuse' for arresting them was 'mental deficiency'. Saw a movie, an autobiography-name escapes me- about a Cuban writer, who was always hiding from the govt due to his anti-Castro writings.

He tried to gain an exit by claiming to be gay.

I don't know why anyone would vacation there and profit that despicable regime. I also was furious with Bush 1 for continuing Favored Nation Status with China. They are just as bad. But I know --$$$$.
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fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 08:28 pm
This is a theme I know too well.

1. Cuba's revolution has been long ago betrayed. Now the country is a police State run not by a dictator, but a tyrant. There is scarsity of about everything. There are no freedoms at all. All the few good things of the revolution are gone, all the bad things have stayed.

2. One of the things that has given Castro some minimum leverage among his people is the American embargo. It's the perfect alibi to gather nationalistic indignation. It's the verification that there is an enemy and that the enemy means to do harm to the people.

3. The American embargo is counterproductive, and has worked against American corporations (everybody else is doing business in Cuba, profitting from the low wages and relatively good educational level), and has worked against the Cuban people's interest, as it has become Castro's favorite propaganda argument.
It survives, against the opinion of the rest of the world -including all US allies, except Israel-, because the US Cuban agenda is set by a minority of Cuban-Americans, the hard-liners who fled to the US in the onset of the revolution: the political base of the pro-US Batista dictatorship and their heirs.

4. The hatred among old Cubans -those inside and those outside the island- is not shared by younger generations (and by younger I mean under 60). But the old timers control the agenda.

5. It is false that Castro lets go only homosexuals and HIV positives.
He let go several hundred prisoners on the Mariel flight in 1980 (named after Puerto Mariel, the only port boats were allowed to get people and leave). The propaganda point was that everyone who wanted to leave was part of the lumpenproletariat. In Marxist terms, the lumpen are all despicable.
Homosexuals have always been prosecuted under Castro's regime. They were put on working "re-education- camps in Isla de la Juventud during the second half of the 60s. The grip lessened a little -as the whole regime-during the 70s and 80s, but tightened again since the 90s.
HIV positive people are secluded in concentration camps. They are very few, indeed. And this terrible measure is done in order to protect the growing tourist sex business.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 08:31 pm
Ok - let me put it a different way - why does the US SAY it has sanctions against Cuba? What is the reason given for the policy?

I believe they were in place, were they not, well before 1962? I mean you guys invaded Cuba in 1960, was it, or '61? Bay of Pigs, you know. I mean I know they were Cuban expat men - but 'twas funded and backed by the USA, trained by the CIA - well, not so well backed in the end, I guess, when it came to planes....but, still....

Dys - how is Cuba an "embarrassment to a great power?" because it is "communist"? Surely the Cuban ex-pat bloc can't be SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO powerful - hmmmmmm, I guess Florida did turn out to be pretty powerful last time...

Are you saying that it just makes American administrations feel irked - or, other than during the missile crisis - is there some sense of threat?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 08:33 pm
Thanks Fbaezer - my original question still stands though.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 08:33 pm
I don't really think we can really blame Ricky Ricardo!
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fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 08:42 pm
dlowan, Ricky Ricardo's dad was put in jail by Batista, the US backed dictator!
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Pitter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 08:44 pm
Expensive
In a nutshell the US/Cuba problem has always been based in the US's fanatical and abject fear of Communism

An American friend of mine lived there for a while and found it to be very expensive even though he wormed his way into the local economy. I recently checked into it as a tourist destination from Cali, Colombia and it was a lot more expensive than either Panama or the Dominican Republic. I'd love to go but can't do it at those prices.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 08:44 pm
Really? Er, that would mean, of course, in pure logic, that the US is not justifying the sanctions by saying 'tis because Castro is a dictator? LOL!!!
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fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 08:48 pm
The American reasons are preposterous and, IMHO, it all ends up in the Florida vote and the "I'm more anti-communist that my contender" electoral stuff. Believe or not, it still works well in American politics.

In the 50s, 60s and 70s Americans were putting their feet not only in Cuba, but everywhere, overthrowing "potentially hostile" regimes everywhere.
Jacobo Arbenz, Ben Bella, Patrice Lumumba, Juan Bosch, Salvador Allende, are some of the losers.
Some of the regimes were democratic, others weren't.
The American loss in Vietnam helped to tame them a bit.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jan, 2003 09:07 pm
surf the net and see what you come up with under "operation camelot"
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