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The new Democratic party. What will it look like?

 
 
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2017 08:42 pm
@Frugal1,
The thing Iḿ curious about wrt Hillary and I can´t seem to come up with an answer on the Internet...

Do womenś prisons have chain gangs??
0 Replies
 
catbeasy
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2017 09:40 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
You did misunderstand, and I didn't conflate anything. I merely assumed you understood a very fundamental fact of history - namely that the human situation and all it's contradicvctions hasn't changed significantly despite all the many changes in our material world.

Fair enough..

You are correct, basic stuff. So, what was your point by pointing this stuff out then? So what? The human genome hasn't changed, we have lived enough generations for all of human nature to have been on display many time over. I get it, water is wet.

What does that have to do with politics and this argument? I guess I probably assumed the things I assumed because I thought you had a relevant point and were not stating self evident things..
georgeob1
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2017 10:08 pm
@catbeasy,
Go back three pages and reread my post that you objected to. That should take care of it.

To make it easier, I think this was the section which caused you trouble;
Quote:
Our history and the history of all representative governments going back to Rome and Athens reveal a continuing pattern of shifts from conservatism to what we today call liberal. I know of no evidence suggesting these things will ever change. They arise from human nature and the tumult that occurs between those who lead, create and seek power and those who wish to be left alone, but provided for in an emergency. I don't think that looking at things on a ten or so year cycle reveals any lasting truth.


In short, human nature is very complex and full of contradictions (one has only to look at himself to see this), and observably it has changed very little over recorded history. As a result human societies come in various forms, none of them very stable over time - perfection is impossible. Historians from Livy of Rome, to Machiavelli in the 14th century, Gibbon in the 18th and Toynbee in the 20th century have confirmed this, and, in addition, have noted that the longest lasting, republican forms of government have cycled between excursions to the left and right, alternating between domination by elites and by the masses, and have survived precisely because they had internal mechanisms for dealing with, and adjusting to, the public tuumult involved in these transitions, without flying apart in the process. They all suggest that this is probably the best that can be attained, and the history of the last five milennia indicates they are probably correct.

Read one of the first extant works of History- Thucydides' "Peloponnesian War" , the history of the fall of the Athenian empire in a long (nearly a century) struggle with Sparta, written by one who partook in it himself. It is remarkably modern in its description of the human actors in the struggle. (Indeed, among other wonderful and insightful things in it, you will find that Abraham Lincoln modelled his Gettysburg Address on a speech of Pericles contained in this history) .
Walter Hinteler
 
  5  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 01:05 am
@georgeob1,
As an aside: Thucydide is the first known "historian" to have tried to write a neutral, unbiased history. [And Machiavelli lived in the 15th/16th century ... to start 2017's nitpicking discussions with you Wink ]
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 07:21 am
Code:The new Democratic party. What will it look like?


Just like the old democrat party... There actually are questions with simple answers...

http://observer.com/2016/12/pelosi-confirms-plan-to-treat-sanders-progressives-as-second-class-citizens/

Quote:

Pelosi Confirms Plan to Treat Sanders Progressives as Second-Class Citizens

After Hillary Clinton's stunning loss, the only thing Democratic elites plan on changing is their party's marketing strategy

It’s been nearly one month since the general election, and the Democratic Party still refuses to learn anything from Hillary Clinton’s embarrassing loss to Donald Trump, and their failure to recoup majorities in both Houses of Congress. The Democratic Party leadership opted instead to preserve the status quo by electing Sen. Charles Schumer and Rep. Nancy Pelosi to lead the party in Congress.

In a recent interview, House Minority Leader Pelosi confirmed that the Democratic Party doesn’t plan on enacting any reforms or making any changes beyond different marketing strategies. “I don’t think people want a new direction,” she said in a December 4 interview with CBS’ Face the Nation.



Walter Hinteler
 
  5  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 07:39 am
@gungasnake,
The paper's owner and publisher, Jared Kushner is Donald Trump's son-in-law ...
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 07:46 am
@Walter Hinteler,
So what?
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 07:56 am
https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=pelosi+++“I+don’t+think+people+want+a+new+direction%2C”+&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
0 Replies
 
Frugal1
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 08:44 am


Obama failed to deliver
0 Replies
 
Frugal1
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 09:28 am
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1VgxCJUoAEFSrl.jpg:large
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 09:47 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

the Dumpster?


Are you really replacing Trump with "the Dumpster"? You've decided to be one of those posters?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 09:48 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Well thank you for that Walter. You are correct,( and I just finshed his Discorses on Livy).
0 Replies
 
catbeasy
 
  3  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 12:45 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
In short, human nature is very complex and full of contradictions (one has only to look at himself to see this), and observably it has changed very little over recorded history.

Like I said before, I get that. Reread what I wrote. Was that your only point? I don't see how it relates to the discussion..? What does that reality add? You are stating what is self evident..high level concepts that have absolutely no bearing on a specified subject matter..(and I mean specific, for example as a current policy point in discussion)

So, broadly, we vacillate between left and right and we can't have anything but because we are dialectical creatures. Fair enough. How does that help me in deciding if a particular policy is good or bad or if that particular policy can be changed? I don't want spider politics, I want human ones!

Or were you just waxing prosaic in describing human nature? If so, fair enough..

I'll wax a little prosaic: though I do agree with your general principle that humans must be on a conservative/liberal scale (in the general absolute senses of these words), that shape and proportion isn't a foregone conclusion. And with a new shape it may be possible to for something qualitatively different to arise. I say this for two reasons. One is that I believe there is social evolution. That new information about ourselves and the world changes us, qualitatively. The other is that part of the mechanism of that change is openness. The first of that ilk leading the charge/change was the printing press, now the internet. Fundamentally, we may not change, but at some level below that (at what level, who knows?) , we just might..
georgeob1
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 02:22 pm
@catbeasy,
catbeasy wrote:

I'll wax a little prosaic: though I do agree with your general principle that humans must be on a conservative/liberal scale (in the general absolute senses of these words), that shape and proportion isn't a foregone conclusion. And with a new shape it may be possible to for something qualitatively different to arise. I say this for two reasons. One is that I believe there is social evolution. That new information about ourselves and the world changes us, qualitatively. The other is that part of the mechanism of that change is openness. The first of that ilk leading the charge/change was the printing press, now the internet. Fundamentally, we may not change, but at some level below that (at what level, who knows?) , we just might..

I believe that if you read and reflect on the recurrent trends and events on recorded history and then consider what has been going on in our world over the last century, or even the last decade, you will conclude that very little, beyond the curent physical circumstances of life, has changed at all.

Mankind has made continuous improvements in the physical features of life and greatly expanded his ability to survive and thrive in previously challenging environments; produce the necessities for life; store and manage information; and make war and destruction. None of that appears to have significantly changed his behavior or and relations with others, both of his immediate family, tribe or nation or between these entities.

There have been a few perceived "new beginnings" and promises of great and continuing changes in the human condition. Rienzi's 14th century revolution in Rome; The French Revolution, the Marxist/Leninist Soviet Revolution and renascent Islamic one we are seeing now are but a few examples. The first three turned to dust and we can hope the current one will as well.
catbeasy
 
  3  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 03:05 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I believe that if you read and reflect on the recurrent trends and events on recorded history and then consider what has been going on in our world over the last century, or even the last decade, you will conclude that very little, beyond the curent physical circumstances of life, has changed at all.

Although I agree with your broad strokes, I don't see this in detail and as a practical matter for the average person. And I'll stick to the West and politics here though I'm sure much of the other parts of the world were similar.

You state that our advances don't change the way we relate to each other? I don't get that. A simple example would be that the majority of people thought slavery was ok in this country (and prior to that, essentially, the whole world thought so), now not so much. That changes the way we relate to one another. A law allowing slavery and people being born into that political reality will see those slaves differently (statistically speaking).

So, what I see is that prior to the renaissance (when, as it goes, things started to change in earnest), most countries/cultures accepted slavery as a normal, moral part of life (though I think this moral aspect deserves its own treatment - but beyond the scope here). Not so much anymore.

Also, the vast majority of the population of the West lived in misery, they had little political power, their lives were pretty much at the whim of the lord of their land or raiders and they were the victims of wars which they had absolutely no say in. Also, the prisons today are no picnic and have their own inhumanity to them, but the systems of yesteryear made todays look like summer camp by comparison. Once in, there was little power of the average inmate to be freed, little power of acquisition of a lawyer to help with their case..I could go on..

But I'm sure I'm not telling you something you don't know. The conclusion is that in the West there is more political power available to the average Joe or Josie (whether its used is another thing).

Yes, people in positions of power today can kill at whim (witness Obama's drone program), but comparatively speaking, the folks of yesteryear could do so much more without sanction, justification etc. Obama still has to justify his programs, there is pushback, the average citizens do have a voice. When we are loud enough, we do make change. One of the reasons I believe that a change has occurred, is the level of information and sophistication of the people. That I believe strikes a qualitative note of change in human beings. An evolution in culture, one that isn't guaranteed to happen or continue - but we can note that change nonetheless. A change that makes a difference, not in theory but in the way life is actually prosecuted.

True its got a long way to go but great strides have been made..I could go on, but I'm sure you're aware..

So, yes, broad picture, life still has wars, slavery, etc. But the proportion has gone down, the power of the average person to control his/her and participate and effect political life is greater than it was before. This means something, something practical to the average western person who lives today*.

Other than as a historical curiosity and perhaps an intellection framework, I don't know what to do, practically, with the information you present. It doesn't help me to decide on how to vote, how to help, who to fight etc..

But I'm sure you know these facts. Am I still missing your point?

*who would trade their current life for the life of an average western person in the middle ages. I doubt you'd get too many people rolling the dice on that one..

georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 04:05 pm
@catbeasy,
You've gone in a big circle and maid my point for me.
catbeasy
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 04:10 pm
@georgeob1,
cool, we are in agreement then..!
0 Replies
 
Frugal1
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 04:38 pm
The democrat party never looks happy.

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15894411_10154904869049776_9206329200854127140_n.jpg?oh=defac76c26eca123c6d74f62cb104ad0&oe=58E57A8C
0 Replies
 
Frugal1
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 04:47 pm
The democrat party has to really step it's game Laughing

0 Replies
 
Frugal1
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2017 04:51 pm
Not to be outdone...

0 Replies
 
 

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