maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 09:36 am
@giujohn,
giujohn wrote:
and we don't need for any foreign interests telling us how to run this country.


God, you're like the person in Plato's Allegory of the Cave.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 09:37 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
the vast majority of democracies in the 21st Century do not practice capital punishment.
Oh don't be silly, of course they do. (Not that they are 'true democracies' which is what I brought up.)

These 'democracies' have a formal agreement never to attack or assassinate foreign leaders no matter how bad they are. But it's perfectly acceptable to go to war and kill thousands of others to get the bastard. I believe your democracy participated with gusto as well, and not by popular vote I might add. Democracy hasn't existed for a long time. You might actually have to go back to ancient Greece to find an example.

Of course we could implement election by popular vote. And we could give all states the same percentage of Senators based on population. ( Sorry Rhode Island, you get Zero.)

There is a Reason the framers of the Constitution set it up that way. Time for you to brush up on history and 'democracy'.

https://www.facebook.com/prageru/videos/883270108382513/
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 10:20 am
@Leadfoot,
The reason is that it was suitable at the time, but things move on. Why would changing the rules so that the popular vote is used to determine the presidential election affect the way senators are elected?

I never claimed that there was such a thing as true democracy, that's a red herring, but to suggest, as you did, that the electoral college is what separates you from anarchy is absurd.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 10:41 am
@Baldimo,
Baldimo wrote:
Dems will control one of the houses of Congress by 2018 and even the entire Congress by 2020.

Possible, but I think very unlikely.

I recognize that the party that doesn't control the White House makes gains in off year elections, but this tends to start off small and only build as time passes. The first off year election, it will be a small force.

The House currently has a huge Republican advantage due to built in gerrymandering which will still be in effect in 2018.

The 2018 Senate race has the Republicans defending a small handful of seats and the Democrats defending a huge number of seats. The Republicans are defending seats that are relatively safe for them. Some of the seats that the Democrats are defending are in states that like to vote for Republicans.


Baldimo wrote:
Will Trump win in 2020? I have no fricking clue.

2020 will be an easy Trump victory. And he will sweep downballot Republicans into office on his coattails.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 10:51 am
The question of race: Is Trump's presidency due to racist voters?

Surprisingly prescient prognosticator Michael Moore offers his argument.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/11/11/michael-moore-millions-of-trump-voters-elected-obama-twice-theyre-not-racist-video/
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 11:56 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I never claimed that there was such a thing as true democracy, that's a red herring, but to suggest, as you did, that the electoral college is what separates you from anarchy is absurd.
I didn't say anarchy would be the result (your red herring).

But to get back to the point - Here's why it's a good thing. Without the EC, a candidate could appeal to and campaign only to large population centers (city folks) and win. They have the numbers. It results in your sacred 'democracy'. The minority in the rest of the country (The politicians call it 'fly-over country') get screwed.

We have the EC for the same reason we have the Bill Of Rights.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 11:59 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
I never claimed that there was such a thing as true democracy, that's a red herring, but to suggest, as you did, that the electoral college is what separates you from anarchy is absurd.
I didn't say anarchy would be the result (your red herring).

But to get back to the point - Here's why it's a good thing. Without the EC, a candidate could appeal to and campaign only to large population centers (city folks) and win. They have the numbers. It results in your sacred 'democracy'. The minority in the rest of the country (The politicians call it 'fly-over country') get screwed.

We have the EC for the same reason we have the Bill Of Rights.


How about distributing electoral college votes proportionately then?
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:03 pm
@maporsche,
It would take an act by each of the states to enact this. The Federal govt has no say in how the states do the EC. There is at least one state that does this and I wouldn't have a problem with the states splitting their votes. A state like CA with 55 EV would see their power diluted, smaller states wouldn't be as effected.
georgeob1
 
  3  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:05 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

There's no reason on earth why you can't move to the popular vote. Your system is archaic. You sound like the people who were opposed to the 1832 Reform Act.

I know you don't have a lot of history and are reluctant to meddle with what little you have, but don't kid yourself that the alternative to your system is chaos, it's not.

Poor Izzy appears to be unaware that the United Kingdom isn't particularly united anymore. Scotland is restive, focused more and more on its own legislature and government, and in some quarters considering remaining in the EU (if that is possible) following a Brexit. London has become a European City far less connected to the rest of England.

That said Izzy's very British, but forced and empty condesension is amusing. Why so many of them habitually resort to that pedantic nonsense has always bewildered me. Is it some deep seated insecurity or something like that?
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:13 pm
@Baldimo,
Baldimo wrote:

It would take an act by each of the states to enact this. The Federal govt has no say in how the states do the EC. There is at least one state that does this and I wouldn't have a problem with the states splitting their votes. A state like CA with 55 EV would see their power diluted, smaller states wouldn't be as effected.


Every state would see their power distributed based on the voters in each state. California would have sent 18 EC votes to Trump, but would have gotten 16 of those back from Texas for example.

I think this system is more fair and really would see candidates campaign nationwide.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:23 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

Baldimo wrote:

It would take an act by each of the states to enact this. The Federal govt has no say in how the states do the EC. There is at least one state that does this and I wouldn't have a problem with the states splitting their votes. A state like CA with 55 EV would see their power diluted, smaller states wouldn't be as effected.


Every state would see their power distributed based on the voters in each state. California would have sent 18 EC votes to Trump, but would have gotten 16 of those back from Texas for example.

I think this system is more fair and really would see candidates campaign nationwide.


The EC is a terrible system. You guys keep thinking state centric as if it's important that a state turn red or blue.

Here is the thing, what if 3/4 of texas did vote blue but the delegates decide to all vote red. Essentially 3/4 of votes would then be silenced by a handful of deligates.

You see its not about the people but instead the delegates are all that matter. Your vote means nothing if it can be silenced.

Just look at the popular vote and tell me the EC is necessary. Hillary won it by 230k, which was far greater than her delegate turn out. By the end she still needed 55 points but the PV had her ahead.

The EC is outdated and not necessary.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:24 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:

maporsche wrote:

Baldimo wrote:

It would take an act by each of the states to enact this. The Federal govt has no say in how the states do the EC. There is at least one state that does this and I wouldn't have a problem with the states splitting their votes. A state like CA with 55 EV would see their power diluted, smaller states wouldn't be as effected.


Every state would see their power distributed based on the voters in each state. California would have sent 18 EC votes to Trump, but would have gotten 16 of those back from Texas for example.

I think this system is more fair and really would see candidates campaign nationwide.


The EC is a terrible system. You guys keep thinking state centric as if it's important that a state turn red or blue.

Here is the thing, what if 3/4 of texas did vote blue but the delegates decide to all vote red. Essentially 3/4 of votes would then be silenced by a handful of deligates.

You see its not about the people but instead the delegates are all that matter. Your vote means nothing if it can be silenced.

Just look at the popular vote and tell me the EC is necessary. Hillary won it by 230k, which was far greater than her delegate turn out. By the end she still needed 55 points but the PV had her ahead.

The EC is outdated and not necessary.


I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm trying to find a middle ground to bridge the gap in those who agree with us and those who want smaller states to be protected.
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:29 pm
@maporsche,
Did you ever wonder if he is chained to a wall how does the fire behind him case shadows?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:35 pm
@Krumple,
This is a good read from an important historian.

Setanta wrote:

Since I don't know your clock, i don't know if I'm answering in time for you, but you can read this any time.

Roger, in his response immediately after yours, partially answers. Without the Electoral college, you could just count out everyone but California the belt of cities running from Boston to D.C. and from Chicago east to New York. Farmers, ranchers, miners and everyone else in the Midwest and the West (other than California) could kiss their franchise goodbye.

I also object because the Electoral College was a part of the sovereignty compromise, part of the mechanism--along with the creation of a Senate--which reconciled "small states" (small in population, lead in 1787 by New York and New Jersey, ironically) that they would not be swallowed by the then "unholy" triumvirate of Virginia, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts, which between them had about two-thirds of the country's population.

I also object because the author of the piece which CdK quoted trots out a bullshit old chestnut at the very beginning of the article, to the effect that the Electoral College was a means of enshrining slavery. The author is historically ignorant, and confuses cause and effect, and the principle of unintended consequences. The Three-Fifths compromise, to which the writer refers (with 60% of the slave population being counter for purposes of determining Congressional districts and representation) was one of the last measures taken by the convention. Charles Cotesworth Pinckney South Carolina threatened that the constitution would not be ratified by the slave-holding states (slaves were held in every state at the time, but the northern states would soon adopt varying degrees of restrictions on slavery, and many northern citizens were publicly and vocally opposed), unless concession was made for the slaves states. Surprisingly, he was supported by Rufus King of Massachusetts, who happened at that time to be a delegate to the convention from Pennsylvania, and who therefore spoke (inferential) for the second and third most populous states (Virginia was the most populous, and a slave state). King was being a pragmatist, and many northerners agreed with him that some compromise was necessary to get the slave states on board, and that a flawed union were better than no union at all. This was further modified when two of the "scholars" of the convention, James Wilson of Pennsylvania (a Scots Presbyterian born in Scotland) and Roger Sherman of Connecticut proposed counting three-fifths of the slave population. Southerns had said that all slaves should be counted (although, of course, they wouldn't vote), and northern states were not prepared to go along with that. Wilson and Sherman were extremely well-informed and careful scholars of law and the history of law, and like Rufus King, felt that a compromise which would keep the southern states in a union was preferable to no union. The three-fifths compromise was one of the last acts of the convention, and the sovereignty compromises of the Senate and the Electoral College had already been determined upon prior to the three-fifths compromise, and without reference to it.

His second chestnut is that which claims the Electoral College was conceived as a bulwark against the ignorance of the electorate. Although there may be elitists who thought that way, the principle concern of the men meeting at the convention was the unwieldy nature of elections at that time, but most importantly, the insistence of small population states that they not be overwhelmed by the mere numbers of the populous states. The second clause of Article 2, Section 1 reads:

Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

Each state then and today can choose how to allocate electors, and even how they are chose within the state (there would be quite a howl, though, if it did not follow the popular vote, and it would be worth their jobs for state legislators to attempt to take it out of the hands of the electors). Some states (or at least one, Colorado) allocate the Electoral College votes according to the popular vote, with the two votes equivalent to the Senators going to the candidate who polls the most votes. The problem which maddens most contemporary American commentators is the "winner take all" nature of the system as it now stands. That is a product of the post-Civil War politics of the Republican and Democratic parties, the only two survivors of the war (four candidates ran for President in 1860), which warily circled one another looking for advantage, but which both agreed that it were best not to have any other competition. A winner take all system for Electoral College votes was agreed upon between them in the latter part of the 19th century, and passed by the state legislatures, all of which were in the control of one or the other of the two parties.

So i object on the basis of the editorialist's argument being based on popular (popular in the late 20th and early 21st centuries) historical myth, and the blatant attempt to tie the Electoral College at the outset to slavery, in a pathetic attempt to beg the question by discrediting the institution by means of guilt by association. Besides being about a measure of which i don't approve, the editorial was a piece of journalist hogwash.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:43 pm
Have you seen the electoral map of the US?

Going with the popular vote in the US would be like going with it in Europe: Brussels, London, Berlin, & Madrid would decide a single leader to preside over every other soul in Europe.

States have different interests. The Rust Belt, the farming areas, etc. The EC ensures that a presidential candidate must have responses to the various needs of all areas in our country. Without the EC, presidents and policies would ignore the needs of far-flung or "fly-over" areas.

It is frustrating when EC and popular votes don't match, but abolishing the EC would decimate the country.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:47 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

Have you seen the electoral map of the US?

Going with the popular vote in the US would be like going with it in Europe: Brussels, London, Berlin, & Madrid would decide a single leader to preside over every other soul in Europe.

States have different interests. The Rust Belt, the farming areas, etc. The EC ensures that a presidential candidate must have responses to the various needs of all areas in our country. Without the EC, presidents and policies would ignore the needs of far-flung or "fly-over" areas.

It is frustrating when EC and popular votes don't match, but abolishing the EC would decimate the country.


How could they do that when the Senate and House of Representatives are there to protect individual states rights?
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 12:53 pm
@maporsche,
How's that been working? They're working for their own profit.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 01:09 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
There's no reason on earth why you can't move to the popular vote. Your system is archaic. You sound like the people who were opposed to the 1832 Reform Act.

It's no worse than parliamentary democracies like the UK. Parliamentary democracies also choose their executive leadership based on who wins a majority of legislative districts.

The only difference is that in a parliamentary democracy, when a district votes for a legislator of a given party, they also vote for the executive leader of the same party. In the US a congressional district can elect a congressman from one party and send their electoral vote to a presidential candidate from an entirely different party.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 01:36 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Parliamentary democracies also choose their executive leadership based on who wins a majority of legislative districts.
Not in Germany: here, the Federal Chancellor is elected by a majority of the members of the Bundestag ("Federal Diet", the lower house of the German Federal Parliament). It's a secret ballot.

The Bundestag is a "mixed-member proportional representation" = the majority isn't necessarily a majority of legislative districts. (For instance, the Social Democrats got 58 legislative districts but have 193 members of parliament [135 via the "party list"].)

oralloy wrote:
... in a parliamentary democracy, when a district votes for a legislator of a given party, they also vote for the executive leader of the same party.
And that's exactly what don't do: we vote with one vote our pegislator, with the second a party (list).

That's in the Federal elections ("general elections"). State and local elections can differ.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2016 05:01 pm
Leadfoot posted this but it warrants reposting so people can discuss the topic with a basis of knowledge

https://www.prageru.com/courses/political-science/do-you-understand-electoral-college

For over 200 years this has been the way we elect our president. At any time, the people could have attempted to change it. They didn't or if they did it was so feeble an attempt as to not have received historical recognition.

During this campaign pundits and HRC supporters repeatedly commented on how HRC had a electoral college advantage and that her path to 270 was so much more reliable than Trump's. Even when polls based on popular votes suggested he might be closing on her, none of them, ever once, raised the question of whether the Electoral College was "fair."

Only now that she surprised them by losing are they caterwauling about the EC.

It doesn't matter, the EC can't be abolished retroactively and it won't be anytime in the near future.
 

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