Bush AWOL documents fake?

PDiddie, a Direct Order cannot be conveyed by memo. No record of any such order exists ... an unlikely circumstance in the issuance of Direct Orders, which would by regulation be appended to the subject service member's permanent file.

No documentation or testimony shows any refusal to take the flight medical. With no further flight time anticipated (his aircraft type was not operated out of the Alabama ANG base to which he was transfering), there was no need or requirement for him to be flight certified.

The fact is that Bush the Younger satisfied, as evidenced by uncontested official records, the Duty Point requirements for each and every year of his enlistment, by or before each anniversary date of his enlistment, as required per regulation (not per Calendar Year or Fiscal Year, mind you, but by anniversary month of enlistment date - thast's the regulation) ... more than satisfied the point requirements, actually.

The only "AWOL" here is the credibility of The Democrats.

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timberlandko wrote:

PDiddie, a Direct Order cannot be conveyed by memo. No record of any such order exists ... an unlikely circumstance in the issuance of Direct Orders, which would by regulation be appended to the subject service member's permanent file.

*sigh*

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardmay4.pdf

Go ahead, call it a fake again.

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Well, well, so how does it feel? Being the victim of lies. (if they are lies)

Kind of like Kerry must have felt having his record distorted and dishonored.

Let's just say this document as well as the Swift Boat crap both prove to be a fakes. What that would mean is that Bush did hide out / "serve" as reported, in the guard in Texas, and Kerry did volunteer, serve in combat in Vietnam, save a life, sustain injuries, etc, etc. as reported. Bush still comes up on the short end, because he WAS on the short end.

And you know what else ? I don't think either set of lies (if that is what the allegations against Bush turn out to be) will make a damn bit of difference. These stunts are changing no one's mind. The 10-11% "bounce" is back down to 2-3%. People made up their minds a long time ago, and nothing will change them.

Still, dirty politics s*cks. At least the Democrats tried to run a high road convention / campaign; the Repubs made no such attempt.

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<sigh> is right, PDiddie;

A) I do, given the myriad questions raised but unanswered, not least of which involve statements by Killian's family and superiors, believe the "Document" to be other than genuine

and

B) Orders are not issued by memorandum

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Well, that settles that. Confused

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Hold up for a minute.

I don't know if those memos are fake or not. I don't know much more than I've read here so far, and while it means a lot to me that BrandX doesn't think they're fake, I still don't know.

But the memos aren't the whole story.

Remember, there was the thing from the Boston Globe?

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/09/08/bush_fell_short_on_duty_at_guard?mode=PF

Quote:

In February, when the White House made public hundreds of pages of President Bush's military records, White House officials repeatedly insisted that the records prove that Bush fulfilled his military commitment in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War.

But Bush fell well short of meeting his military obligation, a Globe reexamination of the records shows: Twice during his Guard service -- first when he joined in May 1968, and again before he transferred out of his unit in mid-1973 to attend Harvard Business School -- Bush signed documents pledging to meet training commitments or face a punitive call-up to active duty.

He didn't meet the commitments, or face the punishment, the records show. The 1973 document has been overlooked in news media accounts. The 1968 document has received scant notice.

Again:

Quote:

In February, when the White House made public hundreds of pages of President Bush's military record

It's a shame that it wasn't gone over with a fine-tooth comb until now, to be sure. But that article isn't based on new memos. Killian's name doesn't appear in that article. It's based on hundreds of pages of President Bush's military record that the White House made public.

No matter what happens with the memos, that shouldn't be obscured. Stuff like:

Quote:

On July 30, 1973, shortly before he moved from Houston to Cambridge, Bush signed a document that declared, ''It is my responsibility to locate and be assigned to another Reserve forces unit or mobilization augmentation position. If I fail to do so, I am subject to involuntary order to active duty for up to 24 months. . . " Under Guard regulations, Bush had 60 days to locate a new unit.

But Bush never signed up with a Boston-area unit. In 1999, Bush spokesman Dan Bartlett told the Washington Post that Bush finished his six-year commitment at a Boston area Air Force Reserve unit after he left Houston. Not so, Bartlett now concedes. ''I must have misspoke," Bartlett, who is now the White House communications director, said in a recent interview.

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Damn right, soze.

I wonder why no one wants to talk about the real questions?

It simply amazes me that everything this goddamn campaign revolves around is what's on TV.

This entire election, thus far, has been about television. All the issues widely discussed stem from television advertisements or shows.

For the broadcast media, this is like money falling from the sky. They cover to the hilt any story that comes from a television advertisement -- which they can show, and then talk about, and then show again, and then talk about some more, lather, rinse, repeat.

The Swift Boat Liars! Denounce the ad! I denounce all ads! But denounce that ad! I denounce all ads! He didn't denounce the ad! 527s! Response ads! The ad said you lied in Vietnam! How dare that ad say such things! You must react more strongly to the ads! He's not responding strongly enough to the ads! Shakeup because of the lack of response to the ads! Guard duty scandal revived to respond to the Vietnam angle in the ads! The documents are forged! No they aren't! Yes they are! Vote Bush or die! We need another ad!

F*cking bullshit.

But as long as we're talking about TV, we're not talking about issues, ands that's the way Karl Rove wants it. Evil or Very Mad

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PD said ..."I'm starting to see how you guys operate:"

Quote:

Creative Response Concepts, the Arlington, Va., Republican public relations firm run by former Pat Buchanan communications director Greg Mueller, with help from former Pat Robertson communications director Mike Russell, sent out a media advisory Thursday to hawk a right-wing news dispatch: "60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake." Creative Response Concepts has played a crucial role in hyping the inaccurate, secondhand Swift Boat allegations, with Russell serving as the group's official spokesman. A company spokesman could not be reached for comment.

Throughout the Swift Boat smear campaign, the veterans involved asserted they had no political agenda and were unaffiliated with any political party. But Creative Response Concepts, which was obviously paid some undisclosed amount for its Swift Boat work, has many links to the Republican Party and the conservative movement. Among its clients are the Republican National Committee, National Republican Congressional Committee and National Republican Senatorial Committee. Its client list also includes the Christian Coalition, National Taxpayers Union, Media Research Council and Regnery Publishing. Regnery is the firm that published "Unfit for Command," the SBVT screed against Kerry's military record.

Yup. Distraction. Put the attention anywhere but on Bush (for the obvious reasons) and if you can smear and slime, well then, all the better.

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Its prolly useless to try, but I will point out again that measured against anniversary date of enlistment, Bush the Younger more than satisfied his enlistment requirements. Fiscal year or calendar year are irrelevant; he earned more than enough points by or before the anniversary date of his enlistment for each and every year of his obligation, and that is how that, by regulation, is calculated. He fulfilled the requirements, as documented unambiguously in official records, and received an Honorable Discharge. No amount of spin alters any of that.

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This just in:

Quote:

HODGES SAID HE WAS MISLED BY CBS:

HODGES SAID HE WAS MISLED BY CBS: Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were "handwritten" and after CBS read him excerpts he said, "well if he wrote them that's what he felt."

Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud".

This is gonna get interestin'er and interestin'er ... 'less you're a Kerry fan.

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Yeah, I'm not buying that any more than you're buying the memos are real.

When Ben Barnes first came out with his admission that he gave Bush preferential treatment, the media yawned. "Of course Bush got preferential treatment. He's gotten preferential treatment all his life."

When the Boston Globe and 60 Minutes came out with the documents proving Bush's faked service, the media took one sniff and rolled over. "We've seen all that before."

But when Drudge said the documents were forgeries, the story grew legs because -- for the first time -- there was a right-wing response to the documents.

The Busheviks fully understand how bad this is.

This is Smear Boat blowback, after all.

Now the story is getting Smear Boat Liars-type coverage. Bad. Very bad.

timb, this is not an argument Kerry has to speak to. They're not Kerry's documents, they're the military's.

I doubt the White House or the military or CBS would forge any documents, but I am certain that John Kerry didn't.

The issue is Bush's to clear up.

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The hits just keep comin':

Quote:

Man named in Bush memo left Guard before document was written
BY PETE SLOVER

The Dallas Morning News

AUSTIN, Texas - (KRT) - The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to "sugar coat" President Bush's military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo was supposedly written, his own service record shows.

An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged on March 1, 1972. CBS News reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as interfering with officers' negative evaluations of Bush's service, was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

That added to mounting questions about the authenticity of documents that seem to suggest Bush sought special favors and did not fulfill his service.

Staudt, who lives in New Braunfels, Texas, did not return calls seeking comment. His discharge paper was among a packet of documents obtained by The Dallas Morning News from official sources during 1999 research into Bush's Guard record ...

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PDiddie, the burden of proof lies with the accuser. The provenance of the accuser's allegations is suspect. It is the accuser's obligation to validate the documentation supporting the allegation. Now, while so far neither Kerry nor The Democratic Party have been shown to have had any complicity in the allegations, CBS and Rather sure as hell are on the hook for this. Its theirs to prove ... if they can, and that looks increasingly unlikely.

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PDiddie wrote:

But as long as we're talking about TV, we're not talking about issues, ands that's the way Karl Rove wants it.

Actually, it is issues that will doom Kerry with most of America, which is why Kerry and the DNC came up with his "I'm John Kerry and I'm reporting for duty" line at their convention. Which is also why the DNC and the Kerry campaign came up with "Operation Fortunate Son" (which I noticed you haven't commented on yet, Puffy). They want to portray Kerry as the warrior who will save America, never mind his extremist left-wing beliefs, while trying to portray Bush as being a draft dodger. They are quickly discovering that both efforts are going down the tubes.

The libs are doing everything they can to keep Kerry's Senate voting record away from John Q. They know that most Americans would be appalled at the things John Kerry believes in. And the Repubs have been able to point this out to voters, which is one of the main reasons Kerry's poll numbers have dropped.

Making their guy out to be a warrior maybe would have worked for the Dems if they would have put a moderate out there. But they are going to discover that Dean would have probably done better then Kerry when all is said and done....

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blah, blah, blah...

one _ more _ ti-yummm...

bottom line;

kerry - 1968-1969 = vietnam bush - 1968-1969 = texas

get over it. bushy's a tiger when it's somebody else's cajones on the line. when it's his, he be a puddie tat.

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timberlandko wrote:

the burden of proof lies with the accuser.

timber, ya know i've got nothin' but love for ya buddy. but i don't remember you saying that about the swifties.

can we agree, between the 2 of us, that this is all horse pucky? maybe then we can get on with killing that a**hole osama and figuring out who's gonna pay for our damned aspirin in our declining years?

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Kerry went to Vietnam.

Bush avoided Vietnam.

Back when Bill Clinton was the issue...the avoidance was a big deal.

Now that the conservatives are covering up for one of their own...the avoidance issue is no longer important.

This may be because things have changed.

It also may be because American conservatism is the most hypocritical political philosophy ever to stink up this planet.

I think it is the latter.

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hey frank...

true. true. and true.

oh, and true. and uhh, true.

i love it. they can dish it out, but they can't take it.

buncha punks...

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A Lone Voice wrote:

Actually, it is issues that will doom Kerry with most of America

Actually not.

Lone wrote:

Which is also why the DNC and the Kerry campaign came up with "Operation Fortunate Son" (which I noticed you haven't commented on yet, Puffy).

And I won't be.

Lone wrote:

They want to portray Kerry as the warrior who will save America, never mind his extremist left-wing beliefs, while trying to portray Bush as being a draft dodger.

So out of focus it likewise is barely worth responding to.

Kerry isn't much of a liberal at all, much less an "extremist left-wing". I'm betting you don't even know what such hyperbolic words actually mean, they just sound good to you.

'Draft dodger'? Wasn't that Clinton?

What's happening (follow this carefully) is that Commander-In-Chief BringItOn diidn't fulfill his watered-down commitment and still skated based solely on his last name.

His actions sent others to die. Then and now.

Lone wrote:

The libs are doing everything they can to keep Kerry's Senate voting record away from John Q.

Name one action that meets this description.

One. We'll wait.

Lone wrote:

And the Repubs have been able to point this out to voters, which is one of the main reasons Kerry's poll numbers have dropped.

Kerry's numbers are going up. It's Bush's numbers that are sinking. What you are babbling here about poll numbers is last week's news. How often do you look at polls?

And JFTR it was Smear Boat that dragged Kerry down.

See, lies and **** actually work with our intellectually sluggish electorate.

There isn't a single word in your little screed there about what Bush is going to do for the next four years. And I know why: because you don't have any more of a clue about it than Bush himself does.

You've simply got a bit too much disconnect with reality to continue to have a meaningful discussion with. Why don't you go play now, while the grownups talk?

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timberlandko wrote:

The hits just keep comin':

Quote:
Man named in Bush memo left Guard before document was written
BY PETE SLOVER

The Dallas Morning News

AUSTIN, Texas - (KRT) - The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to "sugar coat" President Bush's military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo was supposedly written, his own service record shows.

An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged on March 1, 1972. CBS News reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as interfering with officers' negative evaluations of Bush's service, was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

That added to mounting questions about the authenticity of documents that seem to suggest Bush sought special favors and did not fulfill his service.

Staudt, who lives in New Braunfels, Texas, did not return calls seeking comment. His discharge paper was among a packet of documents obtained by The Dallas Morning News from official sources during 1999 research into Bush's Guard record ...

timber, this really is one of those little "inside-baseball" things I believe you should know something about.

Buck Staudt licked more Bush than anyone involved in this deal.

Quote:

Bush was sworn in as an airman the same day he applied. His commander, Col. Walter B. "Buck" Staudt, was apparently so pleased to have a VIP's son in his unit that he later staged a special ceremony so he could have his picture taken administering the oath, instead of the captain who actually had sworn Bush in. Later, when Bush was commissioned a second lieutenant by another subordinate, Staudt again staged a special ceremony for the cameras, this time with Bush's father the congressman - a supporter of the Vietnam War - standing proudly in the background.

Washington Post

He's been quoted saying this about W:

Quote:

"I love the guy. I'm so tired of this negative crap about him that I'd like to volunteer to build a barn and take you press guys out behind it and kick your asses."

Spokane Spokesman-Review

Would you have us believe that a retired Colonel, the former commanding officer, would not exert as much pressure as he possibly could?

If so then you know less than I thought (particularly about the politics of officers active-duty and retired).

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Bush AWOL documents fake?

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