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Bush AWOL documents fake?

 
 
padmasambava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 12:06 am
I smell desperation, too.

Who needs paperwork when people's memories work just fine?

If Bush had shown up for every duty in the Air National Guard it still allows for no comparison to Kerry's service in Vietnam. It's comparable to Bush's manager's position for Andover's sports. One would not claim to have earned a varsity letter doing that job.

No wonder those among Bush's supporters who would loudly beat the drums of war are out to make Kerry look bad.

The problem is the keep forcing us to return and look at "W"'s war experience. Not only is he not a veteran, but it doesn't look like he was a particularly outstanding reservist in a time when reservists were not a risk (unlike now).

Ironic isn't it?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 12:10 am
Oh, nobody has to try to make Kerry look bad; he and his freinds are doing that just fine all by themselves.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 01:04 am
Quote:
Anatomy of a Forgery

More than six weeks ago, an opposition research staffer for the
Democratic National Committee received documents purportedly
written by President George W. Bush's Texas Air National Guard
squadron commander, the late Col. Jerry Killian.

The oppo researcher claimed the source was "a retired military officer."
According to a DNC staffer, the documents were seen by both senior staff
members at the DNC, as well as the Kerry campaign.

"More than a couple people heard about the papers," says the DNC
staffer. "I've heard that they ended up with the Kerry campaign, for
them to decide to how to proceed, and presumably they were handed over
to 60 Minutes, which used them the other night. But I know this much. When
there was discussion here, there were doubts raised about their authenticity."

The concerns arose from the sourcing. "It wasn't clear that our source
for the documents would have had access to them. Our person couldn't
confirm from what file, from what original source they came from."

The documents that CBS News used were not documents from any of Bush's
personnel files from his time in the National Guard. Rather,
CBS News stated that they were documents
uncovered in the personnel files of
Killian. That would explain why the White House or the Pentagon had
never before released or even seen them.

According to a Kerry campaign source, there was little gossip about the
supposedly hot documents inside the office of the campaign on McPherson
Square. "Those documents were not something anyone was talking
about or trying to generate buzz on," says the staffer. "It wasn't like there
were small groups of people talking about this as a bombshell. I think
people here weren't sure what to make of it, because provenance
of these documents was uncertain."

A CBS producer, who initially tipped off The Prowler about the 60
Minutes story, says that despite seeking professional assurances that
the documents were legitimate, there was uncertainty even among the
group of producers and researchers working on the story.

"The problem was we had one set of documents from Bush's file that had
Killian calling Bush 'an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot.'
And someone who Killian said 'performed in an outstanding manner.' Then
you have these new documents and the tone and content are so different."

The CBS producer said that some alarms bells went off last week
when the signatures and initials of Killian on the documents in hand did not
match up with other documents available on the public record, but
producers chose to move ahead with the story. "This was too hot not to
push. If there were doubts, those people didn't show it," says the
producer, who works on a rival CBS News program.

Now, the producer says, there is growing concern inside the building on
57th Street that they may have been suckered by the Kerry campaign.
"There is a school of thought here that the Kerry people dumped this in
our laps, figuring we'd do the heavy lifting on the story. That maybe
they had doubts about these documents but hoped we'd get more
information," says the producer. "If that's the case, then we're bigger
fools than we already appear to be judging by all the chatter about how
these documents could be forgeries."

ABC News' political unit held a conference call at 7:00 p.m. Thursday
evening to discuss the memo and its potential ramifications should the
documents turn out to be a forgery. That meeting took place around the
time that the deceased Killian's son made public statements questioning
the documents' authenticity.

According to one ABC News employee, some reporters believe that the
Kerry campaign as well as the DNC were parties in duping CBS, but a
smaller segment believe that both the DNC and the Kerry campaign were
duped by Karl Rove, who would have engineered the flap to embarrass the opposition.


Yup, this dustup has definitely raised a welt, and its gonna leave a real ugly bruise. My take is Kerry's handlers originally figured to hold this stuff for late-October release, a la the "DUI" scandal back in 2000, but, panicked by the recent poll trending, they tossed it out in a desperate attempt to blunt Bush the Younger's momentum. 60 Minutes' Dan Rather, clearly sympathetic to the Kerry cause, leaped at the opportunity to inconvenience Bush yhe Younger, and refused even to consider the whole thing was just a little too pat, too good; Bad for Bush = Good for Kerry = Good Enough for Dan.

Yeah, its "Dirty Tricks" that are beating The Dems; their own.

Poor Kerry ... can't even put himself up for another Purple Heart on this one Mr. Green
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 01:39 am
timberlandko wrote:
I've been following this "Story" since it broke in the blogosphere, forums, and newsgroups last night ... thinking, at first, the possibility the documents were forgeries was just too delicious to be true. As the evening wore on, and as developments cropped up today, my skepticism was replaced by glee. Knowing how The Lefties here react to anything from "The Right Wing Media", and not really feeling inclined to play that particular game at this particular time, I figured I'd just wait for it to hit the Mainstream Media. Well, folks, it has. The "question" of the documents' provenance currently is Google News' lead US News item, and the word "forgery" is right up at the top of every search-engine's "most requested" list. The evidence the documents indeed are forgeries grows and grows and grows. The Washington Post is Front-paging it tomorrow, Nightline tonight is hitting it, with both Killian's widow and son casting doubt, along with the opinions of recognized and accreditted forensic experts. CBS has just announced it is conducting an "Internal Investigation", with a "highly placed un-named source" reportedly quoted as saying something along the lines of "it doesn't look good for the 60 Minutes folks".


Looks like Kerry's boat has a few new holes.

<chuckle>



When a political party is as hungry for power as the Democrats are, they will do anything to win.

The last political party that acted like this were the Republicans; in 1972!

The Democrats are so desperate to win the White House, they nominated a lackluster lib from Massachusetts who has a left-wing voting record in the Senate, but fought in Vietnam. The Dems thought this would be their meal ticket, as they could portray him as a 'warrior' while the US is in a war.

Looks like it's starting to fall apart for them. The only thing that will be interesting from this point on is to see what kind of Watergate type election corruption the Dems have committed in their thirst for power.....
0 Replies
 
padmasambava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 02:32 am
We will do "anything to win."

That would especially include going to the polls to vote; and to ignore the sort of shallow rhetoric and gimmickry of this post.

If there is one forgery making Bush look bad, there are fifty destroyed documents that might have made him look like someone on the "other dean's list." But what's gone is gone. If Nixon had an eighteen minute gap - what Bush has is more akin to a general amnesia as far as his service record goes.

Nixon's slogan applies to it: Now more than ever.
0 Replies
 
padmasambava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 02:41 am
It looks like Bush's involvement in covering up and minimizing Abu Ghraib and other abuses are a more immediate measure of who is serving our nation and how.

I want to see a change. I find Mr. Bush depressing and uninspiring. In fact he makes me nervous.

I think Kerry will make a good president. And the possibility of undoing the damage to our diplomatic relations with our traditional friends is heartening. If we can get over that hump we are less likely to be "humped" by the international markets as we are now.

You can't create viable economic interdependencies in an atmosphere of threats and reprisals.

If the public isn't smart enough to see through Mr. Bush they will deserve him. Unfortunately much of the international community will feel injured; but allegedly Al Qaeda will be thrilled (Dick Cheney's remarks notwithstanding).

Four more years of Bush - Cheney = 4 more years of fear.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 05:02 am
Im cynical enough to believe that this was an opportunity milked by Rove . There is enough of the smear ON Kerry to have pod enough of the electorate. So by putting out some new smear has the opportunity to backfire on the apparent host.
AMERICANS ARENT THAT SMART WHEN IT COMES TO PRESIDENTIAL POLITICS-Look at what weve got in the White House and look at the DEM candidtae. Both are neither the best or brightest.

The last poll following the GOP convention was reportedly made up of 45% military and 55% seniors. So the point spread was COOKED by sampling bias.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 05:45 am
I don't believe the documents to be fakes. It is now up to those making the accusations that the documents are fakes to prove it with something other than some mumbo jumbo about computers fonts.

We didn't need this memo document bad enough to make out some forgeries. The record already spoke for themselves showing Bush's unexplained missing days and his days of being grounded for missing physicals and the lie was exposed that during the grounded days of Bush's National Gaurd days there was nothing going on with official records which is how they tried to whitewash his grounded days. [of which i already posted a link on another thread]

Bush gaurd flights
[excerpts taken from the above link.

Quote:
WASHINGTON - George W. Bush began flying a two-seat training jet more frequently and twice required multiple attempts to land a one-seat fighter in the weeks just before he quit flying for the Texas Air National Guard in 1972, his pilot logs show.


The logs show Bush flew nine times in T-33 trainers in February and March 1972, including eight times in one week and four of those only as a co-pilot. Bush, then a first lieutenant, flew in T-33s only twice in the previous six months and three times in the year ending July 31, 1971.


The records also show Bush required two passes to land an F-102A fighter on March 12 and April 10, 1972. His last flight as an Air National Guard pilot was on April 16.



Quote:
The Defense Department released Bush's pilot logs this week under pressure from a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit by The Associated Press. The logs do not explain why Bush was flying T-33s or why he twice needed multiple approaches to make landings.


Quote:
White House spokesman Trent Duffy said Thursday said he had no information on the reasons behind the multiple-approach landings or the surge in training-jet flights.


Quote:
Bush joined the Texas Air National Guard in 1968, serving more than a year on active Air Force duty while being trained to fly F-102A jets. He was honorably discharged from the Guard in October 1973 and left the Air Force Reserves in May 1974.

The first four months of 1972 are at the beginning of a controversial period in Bush's Guard service. After taking his last flight in April 1972, Bush went for six months without showing up for any training drills. In September 1972 he received permission to transfer to an Alabama Guard unit so he could work on a political campaign there.

That May, Bush also skipped a required yearly medical examination. In response, his commanders grounded Bush on Aug. 1, 1972.

Bush's pilot logs showed regular training in the F-102A until Feb. 9, 1972, when he flew 1.4 hours as the pilot of a T-33. After seven more flights in the F-102A, Bush made eight more T-33 flights between March 9 and March 15, including the four as co-pilot.


The republicans are just trying to get CBS to drop the story. I hope they don't. It don't matter if it does any good or not. At least it gets the truth out there for those that want to hear it and judge it for themselves.

[edited only because I forgot some words, do that from time to time]
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 06:45 am
Good gracious there are a lot of stubborn people here.

First of all, I don't think that Kerry was involved in any of this. His campaign, maybe, they have the Clinton people now.

Secondly, why the quick, stubborn refusal to accept the fact that these documents could be forgeries? It's not as if someone here wrote them if they were. Let's wait for the investigation before anyone ends up looking, well, anyone ends up overly-wrong.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 06:58 am
well actualy McG you have a point there, I would also like to see an investigation that could prove George his-self is not a forgery. I remember once reading that there actually was no such person as J Edgar Hoover and that there were dozens of imposters going about the nation, attending meetings an all when there was, in fact, no such person. The missing years might very well just be that period of time when they were casting the part.
0 Replies
 
bruhahah
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 07:29 am
who has to prove what?
revel wrote:
I don't believe the documents to be fakes.


Why? A lot of questions have been raised about the typography, the formatting (missing letterhead, improper forms of heading & signature block, etc) as well as by Killian's family. CBS will not even say who gave them the documents nor identify the experts who analyzed them. So, on what basis do you accept their claim?

Also, by now I assume you've seen the morning papers and discovered that ABC and others are starting to go after CBS. Moreover, CBS itself is promising to investigate further (an "internal review" I believe). No one is lightly brushing the whole thing off anymore.

Quote:
It is now up to those making the accusations that the documents are fakes


Sorry, no. The burden of proof is most certainly on those seeking to present the documents as evidence, not those who are skeptical. (Perhaps you are getting confused about who is making the claim/accusation.) If you produce documents against me in court, it is required first that you show why they should be accepted as reliable, not that I "prove they are fake".

Nonetheless, it appears that a host of people across the internet, and many document analysis experts, have gone a long way toward proving these documents are indeed forgeries!

Quote:
to prove it with something other than some mumbo jumbo about computers fonts.


"Mumbo jumbo"? That's pretty lame. If you care to take a close look at the particular points that a number of document analysis specialists have been making (first in answer to questions from "right wing" blogs, but now in "mainstream" news stories!) you will discover that there is a long list of characteristics that fit perfectly with modern word processing, but not with any know typewriter from circa 1972.

Actually, it's not just about which fonts were used. The evidence is stronger than that.

First note that the argument is not simply about whether "proportionate fonts" were available in 1972. Apparently they were, though they were uncommon and limited to the most expensive typewriters (unlikely to be used for such memos). But what about this particular font? Many have shown that it matches Times New Roman precisely. (The only reason for some doubt is that certain subtle features cannot be compared because of the blurriness of the CBS memos --something which may betray multiple photocopying to fake age.) Experts examining huge databases have thus far been unable to come up with a typewriter that used Times New Roman, or something very close to it, at that time! Now that IS important.

But much more problematic are various features that are ONLY possible through type-setting or computer generated type.

Many have already noted the superscript and "smart quotes" --hardly esoteric, as anyone can see it and anyone who has used MS Word or the like is familiar with such auto-format features.

Despite this, the experts are allowing for the slight possibility of finding a typewriter available in 1972-3 that might provided all of these features, including a few superscripts for endings like "th" and curved quotes--though they appear highly skeptical. (On the quotes business. I believe that the memos have a mixed of "curved" and "straight" apostrophes. That's a bit odd. Best case for a typewriter is that someone had and used a curved single-quote on occasion and a straight apostrophe at other times. Very odd. . . Or it could be the result of cutting-and-pasting on a computer.)

But even if such a typewriter can be found, there are other problems with the spacing. Computers"know" which letters are adjacent to each other, how long the line is, etc. Because of this they can be programmed to subtly adjust spaces between letters ("kerning", line-spacing). This sort of feature is, quite simply, impossible with any typewriter!

Another point I haven't seen yet. The only other documents yet produced from the same time and place (esp from Killian) show all the expected features (paper size, proper heading and proper forms of signature, etc), including a mono-spaced typewriter font! None look like the four CBS is using. In other words, even if we ignore the traits ONLY possible with a computer (or printing press) and come up with a typewriter of the early 70s that used superscript, curved quotes and proportional fonts, we have nothing beyond these four memos to indicate TANG ever had such a typewriter!

(Incidentally, I've been waiting for "Debra_Law" to follow up all her claims about IBM Selectrics with something about the fonts those machines used [Times New Roman was NOT among them], not to mention all the other features listed above that are not possible on ANY typewriter.)

Quote:
We didn't need this memo document bad enough to make out some forgeries.


I agree -- this is the thing that gave me most pause when I began to see the arguments about the possiblity of forgery. Though I disagree with your interpretation of the other evidence, it is a bit difficult to understand why someone would forge these particular documents. But the foolishness of attempting hardly undercuts the solid evidence that these documents could not have been produced in the 70s.

And, let's be realistic about human nature. The simple fact is that people do not always behave rationally in these things. (It's not that different from people with a nice, solid record or resume who start boasting and inflating that record to no great advanage and at some risk... even in cases where it's very easy for others to check and uncover the deception. It happens all the time!)
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 08:16 am
What was BrandX's quote? Pity that it's come down to chads and fonts?

-sigh-

I'll just see what happens with it. Either makes sense to me at this point (real, or, trickier, fake-but-the-content-is-true; or fake.)
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 08:31 am
bruhaha

That's an excellent post. Welcome to a2k.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 08:39 am
I figure its more than coincidence that this occurred immediately following the foundering Kerry campaign's having taken on a buncha former Clinton Heavyweights in a vain, futile attempt to reverse its declining fortunes. The only credence now granted the disputed documents is on the part of those desperate for them to have been valid.

At this point, the absolute best the Democrats can hope for is that Kerry himself can be shown to have had no knowledge of of or complicity in the fraud. I expect the question "What did Kerry know, and when did he know it?" will get a bit of play over the next few days. The Democrats have managed a devastating "October Surprise", only they pulled it off in September, and did it against themselves.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 08:50 am
Like I said before...it doesn't really matter if Bush was AWOL or not.

He's a moron...and the people around him are dangerous.

He and his entire crew should be sent packing base on that...not on the other stuff.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 08:51 am
timberlandko wrote:
The only credence now granted the disputed documents is on the part of those desperate for them to have been valid.


Just a tiny bit of hyperbole there?

I have an open mind, but I don't think anything's been proven one way or the other yet. The mainstream news stories you talk about just point to "questions raised"; it's still he said/they said. (CBS News says their experts examined the memos and determined they're real.)
0 Replies
 
jomacc
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 08:59 am
Quote:
Like I said before...it doesn't really matter if Bush was AWOL or not.

He's a moron...and the people around him are dangerous.

He and his entire crew should be sent packing base on that...not on the other stuff.



Frank, shouldn't that be on the "Bush is stupid and I don't like him no matter how dumb the other side is" thread? I would like to know if the docs are real, because it would raise some questions about Kerry in my mind if they are not. First he swallowed the WMD threat, now this? Maybe he would buy this bridge I am selling.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 08:59 am
Timber, we know from the WOMD posts, sends out his certainty ahead of all else as a sort of scout.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 09:20 am
George W. Bush has lied and obfuscated this whole discovery process of his National Guard records from the very beginning. We know he was a coke head and major partier years ago, and missing a crucial medical examination on the taxpayer's dime is atrocious (probably because he was high at the time). Why it can not be blatantly obvious to neoconservatives that this moron got preferential treatment while in the Guard goes against reason. The fact that Dumbya can't remember what he did while in Alabama is telling enough; so he either wasn't there, or he was too stoned or drunk to remember.

With that in mind, what better way to discredit and prolong this continued discovery process by introducing some forged documents. After posting my last thread (Vote for Bush or Die!), and after what Cheney said the other day regarding America being attacked if we DON'T vote for Dumbya, this potentially disgusting tactic from Karl Rove should come as no surprise.

The response from Bush's aide's is that they are encouraging doubts about the documents but conceded that the possibility that they were forged seemed too good to be true (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5955784/).

So, with such a likely political tactic in play, this administration can hopefully effectively prolong this process without resolve into November's election.

So much is at stake. And desperation breeds a devious ingenuity from those who wish to stay in power.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 09:52 am
It's always good to be reminded how caring and forgiving a liberal can be. It warms my heart to know that a young man can make a mistake or two in his youth and not have to worry about how it may impact his future a lifetime away.
0 Replies
 
 

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