Rising fascism in the US

@Lash,

Lash wrote:

I’m trying to be more thoughtful in my opinions and their delivery, and your participation is very helpful.

Indeed you are. Two weeks ago you were quoting this stuff:

Quote:

Such [Islam-needs-reform] rhetoric is a reflection both of Gallic bigotry and sheer stupidity, a toxic combination of ignorance and privilege.

And now you seem to think that, well, Islam needs reform.

1 Reply

@Lash,

Thank you, it's nice to be civilised for once.

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@Olivier5,

I definitely think reform is due, but from the inside of the religion. Perhaps the more moderate leadership.

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@Lash,

The problem is people gravitate to whatever ideology appeals to them. Most terrorists, particularly the ones in Spain and Belgium are disaffected petty criminals with little if any knowledge of their own religion. They're easy prey for hardliners, unlike those who have been to the Mosque regularly and read the Koran. They know the hardliners are at best selectively quoting and at worst downright lying.

What needs to be done is Saudi backed preachers need to be kicked out, and they can take their literature and funding with them.

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@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

I've always kinda wondered why our military has different engagement rules than our police officers (and more strict ones).

From what I understand, the military cannot fire unless fired upon. Even if 10 guys are pointing guns right at them, they are not supposed to fire. They are supposed to deescalate the situation.

If that's wrong, then someone will correct me I'm sure, but if that's right, then wow our priorities are messed up.

This member's post is actually correct. Our service personnel watched the theft of a UN food shipment and the massacre of Africans waiting to receive desperately needed food, but because the gunmen's rifles were not turned on them.

1 Reply

@Lash,

I know you are ignoring me, but I disagree with you. Most of what you are talking about is not Islam itself but various interpretations of the Quran. There have been strides of women wanting more rights in Saudi Arabia and other such places but the leadership always seem to play a two faced game.

As for clothing, I think, personally we shouldn't be telling religious people what they can or can't do or what they can or can't believe; or perhaps not for religious reason, more a cultural thing, either way, it is not up to us to tell people how to live their lives. Unless there are cases where a woman or girl is actually held against her will and made to follow the customs, or worse made to destroy their female part, then I think, to each their own.

1 Reply

@revelette1,

I agree with you, but don't let the Saudis fool you with all their wonderful reforms. With the exception of terrorist caliphates and failed regimes Saudi Islam is the most oppressive in the World.

Agreed, the new crown prince has allowed cinemas to open and women will be allowed to drive in a few weeks' time, but there have been crackdowns.

Quote:

Saudi Arabia has reportedly arrested three more women's rights activists in a crackdown launched just weeks before a ban on women driving will be lifted.

Human rights groups said at least 11 people, most of them women who had long campaigned for the right to drive, had now been detained since last week.

Officials have said they are suspected of "suspicious contact with foreign parties" and undermining "stability".

Other activists have said the crackdown is "unprecedented" and "shocking".

The US has expressed concern about the detentions and said it is "keeping a close eye" on the progress of reforms in the Gulf state, which is a key regional ally.

King Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud and his son, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, drew widespread praise last year when they announced that the decades-old ban on women driving would end on 24 June.

Saudi women's rights activists, including those who have been imprisoned for defying the ban, celebrated the decision. But they also vowed to continue campaigning for the end of other laws they consider discriminatory.

Women must adhere to a strict dress code, be separated from unrelated men, and be accompanied by or receive written permission from a male guardian - usually a father, husband or brother - if they want to travel, work or access healthcare.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-44223285

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Quote:

I agree with you, but don't let the Saudis fool you with all their wonderful reforms. With the exception of terrorist caliphates and failed regimes Saudi Islam is the most oppressive in the World.

Sort of what I meant by "two faced." Admittedly I haven't been keeping up as much as you but I remember reading a piece to what you are referring to sometime in the last weeks.

Other than going to war with them I don't see what we outside of Saudi Arabia can do about women rights except encourage that they be given more rights. I mean, it is a rich country isn't it? What would they lose if they were sanctioned? On the other hand, I don't see why we treat them as cozy as we do vs. some other states and nations over there.

1 Reply

@Lash,

Lash wrote:

maporsche wrote:

I've always kinda wondered why our military has different engagement rules than our police officers (and more strict ones).

From what I understand, the military cannot fire unless fired upon. Even if 10 guys are pointing guns right at them, they are not supposed to fire. They are supposed to deescalate the situation.

If that's wrong, then someone will correct me I'm sure, but if that's right, then wow our priorities are messed up.

This member's post is actually correct. Our service personnel watched the theft of a UN food shipment and the massacre of Africans waiting to receive desperately needed food, but because the gunmen's rifles were not turned on
them...

they were bound by the rules of military engagement not to shoot.

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@revelette1,

We could stop selling them arms, stop allowing them to dictate American foreign policy in the ME, we could talk to Iran.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

They could stop selling oil.

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

I definitely think reform is due, but from the inside of the religion. Perhaps the more moderate leadership.

Sunis known no leadership (there are a bit like Protestants from that POV) so there's nothing to expect from a non-existent leadership. I do hope that more modern-friendly forms of Islam emerge, but I doubt they will replace Wahabism. At best they will compete with it.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

Quote:

I've always kinda wondered why our military has different engagement rules than our police officers (and more strict ones).

Interesting question. Maybe the army is just smarter, better structured, better prepared.

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@Olivier5,

Caused me to think about the Catholic Church, and the massive progressive strides they’ve made in my lifetime.

1 Reply

@Lash,

That's related to why the onus is now on Islam, IMO: other religions are perceived as having made an agiornamento or some effort to modernize, the Jews with reform Judaism, the Catholics with the second Vatican concile, etc.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

The Catholics still need to improve more, in my opinion. I had high hopes of Pope Francis. However, he has not helped the pedophile situation and even pardoned one Priest who raped young boys and he defrocked. Pope Francis changed the rules and now has pardoned him and sentenced him to lifetime of prayer.

Pope Francis Comes Under Fire for Pardoning Pedophile Priest Caught Raping Children

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@revelette1,

Let me get back later, I want to research something.

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@revelette1,

Quote:

The Catholics still need to improve more, in my opinion.

Well yes. Who doesn't?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

My point is that every religion has issues which can be pointed out. Christianity has many sects and so does Islam, some seem more modern than others. Take the Mennonites or the Amish, both have not modernized that much from their beginnings.

I think what we are referring to is not really the actual doctrine of the religions, which were all written a long time ago to say the least, but the cultural of people and where they live.

So women of Islam cover their heads and usually in the US they don't. (some do) The reason is because they feel a woman's hair is part of her beauty and should be covered in public. I don't see the big deal myself.

1 Reply

@revelette1,

As a woman, and if you had to make this choice, would you rather live in a predominently Catholic country, or in a predominently Muslim country?

3 Replies

Rising fascism in the US

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