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Rising fascism in the US

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 10:03 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Fine.

1) What year do you think these parallels started?


You could pick any point in history and find SOME parallels. The argument here is that we have a LOT of simultaneous things going on that are very similar to conditions in the past that led to the rise of extremism.

Quote:
2) What period in US history could you not draw such parallels?'


I think you'd have a hard time finding a point in the last hundred years, in which our political system and society were in as much danger as they are today. This isn't to say there aren't always problems, there are.

Quote:
3) What period in the history of any country in the World could you not draw parallels with any other period of any other country.


This is a meaningless question

Quote:
Parallels are easy to draw. You start with a political narrative you want to push, and then cherry pick "facts" to make them fit and ignore any facts that don't fit the narrative.


Why don't you point out the facts that I'm ignoring, that don't fit the narrative?

Quote:
I can draw the same number of parallels between what's happening to day, and the epic of Gilgamesh of you want ("Build that Wall").


No, you can't.

Quote:
It is a bogus game.


Your argument is ******* terrible here. You can't actually address the fact that there are many parallels, so you just resort to 'so what?' In a debate, you would have dropped a lot of points by now and be well on your way to losing.

Cycloptichorn

[/quote]
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 10:28 am
@Cycloptichorn,
You have your partisan political narrative, and you are sticking with it in spite of the facts. You asked for things that aren't parallels. I gave them to you. You ignored them. That is how ideological narratives work; you cherry pick random facts that seem to fit your narrative, and ignore all of the facts that refute it.

You asked... so I will do this again. Things that have no parallel to anything.

1. Germany had suffered a humiliating defeat in WWI.
2. Germany had never had a black president.
3. Germany hadn't nominated a female presidential candidate with ties to a previous leader.
4. Inflation was super high in Germany at the time.
5. Hitler had himself wrote a racist book.
6. Hitler was jailed.
7. There was a fire in a government building that was probably started by Hitler supporters.
8. There was the Beer hall Putsch.
9. There was no social progress in Germany (such as the establishment of same sex marriage).
10. Germany did not have a burgeoning social media... with all the attendant problems.
11. Germany had no public movments advocating publically for social justice issues. There was no eqivalent of "Black Lives Matter" or protests by public sports teams.

I could go on and on... but you only see the few facts that support your ugly narrative (and twist a few more to make them fit).

It is a silly game you are playing. Apparently I am willing to play along with you.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 10:52 am
@maxdancona,
You haven't presented any facts that cut against my narrative at all. In actuality, when asked to do so earlier, you presented things that make no sense (IE bringing up 'gas chambers' which had zero to do with the rise of Fascism and was totally dumb to even write, you really should admit that).

Now you're throwing things against the wall to see what sticks, but it's a pretty lame effort. You seem to be arguing that, because our situations are not 100% the same, no meaningful parallels can be drawn. This is a pretty ridiculous argument to make, no two situations will EVER be exactly the same, and yet, similarities between different situations do exist.

In order, let's see just how dumb the things you wrote here are:

1. Trump literally won on a message that America had been humiliated, that we 'always lose' and that only he could turn that around. He literally used the same motto as Hitler: that he would 'Make (insert country here) Great again.'
2. Meaningless and a stupid thing for you to write
3. Meaningless and a stupid thing for you to write
4. Inflation in America is being kept artificially low by the Fed, but the point is that our citizenry is suffering the same sorts of hardships as the German citizenry was post WW1.
5. Our current leader has made numerous racist comments over the years and has been sued by the Gov't for racist practices in his businesses. What more, he reportedly (per his ex-wife) kept that very book you describe by his bed and was fond of it.
6. Meaningless and a stupid thing for you to write
7. Meaningless and a stupid thing for you to write. Just because a specific event happened back then, that hasn't happened today, doesn't mean our situations aren't similar.
8. Meaningless and a stupid thing for you to write
9. You don't know the first ******* thing about what you're talking about. Seriously, I wonder if you've done any actual study of the time period at all. For your edification:

http://alphahistory.com/weimarrepublic/golden-age-of-weimar/

Quote:
The economic revival of the mid-1920s enabled the introduction of social reforms and better standards of living. The SPD re-introduced and overhauled the Bismarckian welfare state, providing protection for the young, the aged, the unemployed and disadvantaged. The 1922 Youth Welfare Law declared that every German child had the “right to education, spiritual, physical and social fitness”; the government responded by creating institutions and social workers to accommodate children who were illegitimate, homeless, abandoned or at risk. Further legislation in 1923 and 1927 established relief for those out of work. The Unemployment Insurance Law (1927) required workers and employees to make contributions to a national scheme for unemployment welfare. Other reforms provided benefits and assistance to war veterans, wives and dependents of the war dead, single mothers and the disabled.

Weimar governments also attempted to address a critical shortage of housing in many parts of Germany. Article 155 of the constitution declared that the state must “strive to secure healthy housing to all German families, especially those with many children”, so the government initiated several visionary programs. It employed architects and planners to devise ways of alleviating housing shortages. Government investment, tax breaks, land grants and low-interest loans were also used to stimulate the building of new houses and apartments. Between 1924 and 1931 more than two million new homes were built, while almost 200,000 more were renovated or expanded. By 1928, homelessness has been reduced by more than 60 per cent. There were also improvements for ordinary German workers, who benefited from increases in the real value of wages in each year after 1924. In 1927 real wages increased by nine per cent and in 1928 they rose by a further 12 per cent, making Germany’s industrial workforce the best paid in Europe.


You need to read that entire article before ever speaking about this subject again, you're embarrassing yourself here.

Now, how were these social progress changes in the pre-Nazi era received? From the same link:

Quote:
The Weimar economic miracle did not benefit everyone. The Mittelstand (middle class) found little joy in this alleged ‘golden age’. Bankrupted by the hyperinflation of 1923, the professional middle classes – managers, bureaucrats, bankers and clerks – did not enter the ‘golden age’ in a position of strength and failed to benefit from most of its changes. White collar workers did not enjoy the wage rises of the industrial sector, nor could they always access the benefits of the Weimar welfare state. By the late 1920s industrial sector wages had drawn level with those of the middle class – and in some cases exceeded them. While unemployment fell generally, it remained high amongst white collar professions. Government documents from April 1928 reveal almost 184,000 middle-class workers seeking employment – and almost half of them did not qualify for unemployment relief from the state.

These conditions fuelled middle class resentment and a perception the SPD-dominated government was favouring the working classes at the expensive of the Mittelstand – once an admired and respected part of German society. Some claimed this was intentional, a subtle form of class warfare to impose “socialism by stealth”.
Unlike the workers, who were represented by the SPD and KPD, the middle classes had no obvious political party to turn to. Little wonder that by the late 1920s, the NSDAP was able to tap into this pool of middle class resentment and disenchantment.


Sound ******* familiar? It ought to, it's the exact same argument the GOP uses today to get middle-class voters to vote for them. This was a core argument in Trump's electoral pitch.

10. The Germans at the time had their own, innovative forms of media that were redefining how people got information: widespread newspapers and magazines, but more importantly, Radio. Here, once again, you really should try educating yourself about issues before speaking about them:

https://www.princeton.edu/csdp/events/Petrova04042013/Petrova04042013.pdf

Quote:
How far can media undermine democratic institutions and how persuasive can it be in assuring public support for dictator policies? We study this question in the context of Germany between 1929 and 1939. Using quasi-random geographical variation in radio availability, we show that radio had a significant negative effect on the Nazi vote share between 1930 and 1933, when political news had an anti-Nazi slant. This negative effect was fully undone in just one month after Nazis got control over the radio in 1933 and initiated heavy radio propaganda. Radio also helped the Nazis to enroll new party members and encouraged denunciations of Jews and other open expressions of anti-Semitism after Nazis fully consolidated power. Nazi radio propaganda was most effective when combined with other propaganda tools, such as Hitler’s speeches, and when the message was more aligned with listeners’ prior as measured by historical anti-Semitism.


The Nazis even had a word for the media that was (accurately) reporting on how terrible they were: lugenpresse, or as you know it today, 'Fake News.' They simply claimed anything negative about them was fake and made up, and their supporters bought it. Sound ******* familiar yet??

11. This is immaterial and a stupid thing to write. More importantly, it's also historically inaccurate. I think you actually know next to nothing about this topic. Here you go:

http://www.newstalk.com/The-quite-Weimar-revolutions

There in fact were a lot of organizations pushing, and achieving, important social welfare reforms in the pre-Nazi german era. To say that they had no popular movements advocating for social justice issues is 100% incorrect.

I think I'm done talking about this with you, you're simply making **** up at this point and ought to be thoroughly embarrassed by the inaccuracy of what you've written here. I doubt you'll admit it, though, instead retreating farther into assertion and counter-factual statements, all while loudly insisting that you're right and everyone else is wrong. That's fundamentally boring and a waste of my time.

Cycloptichorn
cameronleon
 
  -3  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 11:04 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:

I think Trump is an American fascist. Racist, violent, populist, ultracapitalist, and militarist. He is precisely the sort of tyran wannabe that the founders were afraid would come in the future. He's why you have all these counter powers and checks and balances. So far the system is holding him in check pretty well, but it's not over until the fat asshole sings...


Quote:
Here in Rome, communists and fascists still beat up one another in street battles


Italy is trying to get out of a political and constitutional crisis.

A prime minister resignation, the call for early and sooner elections, but president Mattarella says "none" not this year 2017... and possibly 2018...

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/12/05/as-italy-plunges-into-uncertainty-a-door-opens-for-populism-in-europe.html

Quote:
ROME—Calls mounted rapidly Monday from populist and other opposition leaders for quick elections in Italy, seeking to capitalize on Premier Matteo Renzi’s humiliating defeat in a referendum on government-championed reforms.

The president, though, told Renzi to stay in office a bit longer until a critical budget law is passed. Some officials say parliament could pass that law as soon as the end of the week.

“With the referendum vote, the Italians have expressed a clear political signal — the desire to go as soon as possible to elections,” wrote Vito Crimi and Danilo Toninelli, two of the top leaders of the populist, anti-euro, 5-Star Movement in a piece accompanying the blog of Movement founder, comic Beppe Grillo.

Since the Italian president tries to ensure parliament can carry out its full five-year term, analysts expect that Mattarella will appoint a transition government to draft a new election law that could satisfy parties worried the way the rules now stand, their forces might be at a disadvantage...

...Among the names touted to head it are Renzi’s finance minister, Pier Carlo Padoan; the president of the Senate, former anti-Mafia prosecutor Pietro Grasso; and Foreign Minister Paolo Gentiloni.

European partners sought to downplay the risk for the common euro currency and European unity.

“This is a crisis of government, not a crisis of state, and it’s not the end of the West. But it’s certainly not a positive contribution against the backdrop of the crisis in Europe,” German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said in Athens.

Investors had been anticipating Renzi’s defeat for several days, and had sold off Italian stocks and bonds. Monday’s sanguine market reaction can also be attributed to the fact that Italy’s markets indirectly enjoy a big backstop from the European Central Bank.


A tyrant in the US was the governor of California Arnold Schwarzenegger when trashed the vote of Californians saying "no" to gay marriage.

President Trump is the opposite to that, he has been discarding the arbitrary decisions made by president Obama, not so what people voted for.

President Obama opted to pass legislation after legislation which were initiatives of his own, a kind of tyranny, and president Trump is cleaning out those laws which never helped the economy or the social status for a common benefit.

A great initiative from president Trump is denying transsexuals in the army, whom at the long run will cost millions of dollars for "special accommodations", and in mu opinion, transsexuals is just an invention because regardless of the efforts of a man to be a woman (plastic surgery, behavior, etc) he will be a man forever and never will be a woman.

I don't know how is in Italy, but here in the US, if you want to buy goods from recycling materials, solar panels for house electricity, etc. it will be a much greater investment that in reality the "sacrifice" is not worthy.

Toilet paper from recycling costs you $3.00 dollars each, and you can buy a dozen regular toilet paper for $7.00.

Solar panels for a house costs thousands of dollars to supply electricity on day time only, at night time electric must be supplied by a utility company anyway, and at the end of the day, you lose money.

It is a complete fraud that president Obama supported, and luckily only some fanatics of a green world bought the idea.

And for you to understand better the position of Donald Trump with respect to quitting the climate agreement.

In no way president Trump is forcing companies to go an exploit coal and other sources of energy. On the contrary, any company or City, or State that feels is not a good idea to exploit such natural resources, they can do so.

What president Trump did was to give the right of the company, city or state to exploit those resources, if they want to.

The health care system (Obamacare) was "mandatory" if you don't have health care insurance, otherwise you must pay a penalty.

Millions of people decided to pay the penalty.

Was this necessary? Paying a penalty for refusing to have health care insurance? Hello?

Coming from arbitrary president Obama, such malicious measure was obvious. President Obama is -in my opinion- a social resent. By doing scrutiny on his words and decisions, this individual shows hatred for society, his regulations protecting what is immoral and his attempts to destroy the government stability with such increment of the national debt as never ever happened in America history... and this increasing of debt without war as a cause.

Hope things go better in Italy, so one day your country may enjoy the goodness in political, social and economical stability like today in the US.

https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/world/2016/12/05/as-italy-plunges-into-uncertainty-a-door-opens-for-populism-in-europe/italy-referendum3.jpg.size.custom.crop.1086x680.jpg
Supporters of the "No" faction for a referendum on constitutional reform protest in front of Chigi palace in Rome on Sunday. The referendum defeat for Prime Minister Matteo Renzi has plunged Europe's fourth-largest economy into uncertainty. (TONY GENTILE / REUTERS)







0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 11:27 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Again... you are dismissing any point that doesn't fit your ugly narrative (it's funny how many facts you reject out of hand). But, let's look at this from the other side... things in modern American life that have no parallel.

1) Social progress... by this I don't mean economic progress, I mean social progress. We recently accepted Same Sex Marraige as a society (a huge victory) and we are openly talking about Transgender rights.

2) Active social movements, including "Black Lives Matter" that have a lot of social support.

3) The rise of social media with all of the issues this entails. It is connecting people in ways we have never been connected... and providing a platform to individuals, but there are difficult issues involving filtering and control of information and the role corporate issues.

4) The public issues of today include global warming, and gun control.

5) Trump rose to prominence as a real estate magnate and then shot to stardom via reality TV.

6) Our modern two party democracy is stable. People run, and get elected. The great majority of people accept that the electoral system is fair (Russia not withstanding) and that the count was accurate.

7) Trump's nationalism takes the form of isolationism. He has never suggesting expanding the control of America (quite the contrary).

8) Hillary Clinton was a disaster of a candidate who lost by insulting American voters ("deplorable"). She came with baggage including a controversial husband and several scandals.

9) Trump's policies are all over the place and his rhetoric has no consistency. One day he supports the Dreamers, the next day he doesn't. There is no evidence that he has any ideological core or any principles. He just says what he has to to get people's approval.


It is interesting your hype about "fake news". The reason that Trump uses the term "fake news" is because liberals did first. Obama used the term long before Trump did... Trump just shot it back at him. It became an applause line because people liked it.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 11:33 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
It is interesting your hype about "fake news". The reason that Trump uses the term "fake news" is because liberal did first. Obama used the term long before Trump did... Trump just shot it back at him. It became an applause line because people liked it.


You're an idiot if you actually believe this.

You failed to respond to the fact that you spouted a bunch of bullshit about history that was totally untrue - you didn't even try to respond to it - and in fact did exactly what I predicted you would, so I'm just going to downvote and ignore you like I do the other fools who speak without any actual knowledge of what they're talking about

Cycloptichorn
maxdancona
 
  0  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 11:35 am
@Cycloptichorn,
The real target of your ire, Cyclopichorn, is the American public. You aren't really insulting Trump. You are insulting America as a whole. And by doing so, you are justifying your own brand of extremism.

This is a problem in a stable democracy such as our. In three years, there will be another presidential election. The Democrats again are going to have to make their case to the American people about why their candidate should govern.

And yet you guys are running around yelling "Nazi Nazi", how do you think this helps anyone?
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 11:36 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Facts are facts Cyclo.


http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/obama-fake-news-231565
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 11:42 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
- and in fact did exactly what I predicted you would, so I'm just going to downvote and ignore you like I do the other fools


Promises promises Wink Didn't you say you were leaving like 20 posts ago?

0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 11:43 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The real issue to me is Free Speech.

Fine with me, but the real threat to free speech in the US is Trump and his ilk, not a bunch of kids at Berkeley...
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:21 pm
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/452618/donald-trump-twitter-damaging-republican-character

Quote:
It shouldn’t take a lawyer to note that any action to challenge “licenses” on this basis would be unconstitutional. It’s Civics 101: The First Amendment protects press freedom, and that protection is easily broad enough to encompass any effort to silence journalists simply because the president believes their work is “partisan, distorted and fake.” Yet, incredibly, across the country rank-and-file Republicans react to such messages not by rebuking Trump but by trying to find a way to rationalize or justify them. Many go even further, joining Trump in his attacks regardless of their merit. These folks are degrading their political character to defend Trump, and the damage they do to their own credibility and their party’s in the process will endure long after he has departed from the political scene. Trump is stoking a particularly destructive form of rage — and his followers don’t just allow themselves to be stoked, they attack Trump’s targets with glee. Contrary to the stereotype of journalists who live in the Beltway and spend their nights at those allegedly omnipresent “cocktail parties,” I live in rural Tennessee, deep in the heart of Trump country. My travels mainly take me to other parts of Trump country, where I engage with Trump voters all the time. If I live in a bubble, it’s the Trump bubble. I know it intimately. And I have never in my adult life seen such anger. There is a near-universal hatred of the media. There is a near-universal hatred of the so-called “elite.” If a person finds out that I didn’t support Trump, I’ll often watch their face transform into a mask of rage. Partisans are so primed to fight — and they so clearly define whom they’re fighting against — that they often don’t care whom or what they’re fighting for. It’s as if millions of Christians have forgotten a basic biblical admonition: “Be angry and do not sin.” Don’t like the media? Shut it down. Don’t like kneeling football players? Make them stand. Tired of American weakness overseas? Cheer incoherent and reckless tweets as evidence of “strength.” The result is a festival of blatant and grotesque hypocrisy. Republicans are right now in the process of demanding that every Democrat and every progressive celebrity of any consequence denounce Harvey Weinstein. Yet when Donald Trump faced serial accusations of sexual assault after being caught on tape bragging that he liked to grope women, many of these same members of the Republican base were furious at those conservatives who expressed alarm. When serial sexual-harassment allegations claimed the careers of Bill O’Reilly and Roger Ailes, many of these same members of the Republican base accused the media of “taking scalps.”

On a vast scale, members of the Republican base are defending behavior from Trump that would shock and appall them if it came from a Democratic president. There is of course always a measure of hypocrisy in politics — partisanship can at least partially blind us all. But the scale here beggars belief. Republicans never would tolerate a Democratic president’s firing an FBI director who was investigating the president’s close aides and then misleading the American people about the reason for that firing. They would never tolerate a Democratic president’s specifically calling for unconstitutional reprisals against his political enemies. They would look at similar chaos and confusion in a Democratic White House and fear a catastrophe. Even worse, Republicans are — to borrow my friend Greg Lukianoff’s excellent phrase — “unlearning liberty.” For example, for many years conservatives focused on ways to protect free speech, an essential liberty under attack from intolerant campus leftists and a larger progressive establishment that labeled dissent as “phobic” or bigoted. Now? Republicans defend Trump’s demands for terminations and economic boycotts against football players who engage in speech he doesn’t like. “Well, it’s not technically illegal,” they say, knowing full well the chilling effect such language will have and knowing full well that they would be howling in anger if President Obama had ever expressed a similar desire to squelch, say, Tim Tebow’s prayers. They know full well that they condemn progressive corporations who use their economic power to squelch dissent. Republicans even defend direct calls for unconstitutional reprisals against members of the press. “He fights,” they say. And they relish the liberal tears. It’s been said countless times because it’s true: Politics and law are downstream from culture. For the sake of short-term political victories — for the sake of protecting a single American president — Republicans have shown themselves willing to help change the culture to one that declares, with one voice (Left and Right), “Free speech for me, but not for thee.” Unless the GOP base changes course — there’s still time, by the way — and demands that its president embody the constitutional values that are supposed to define the party, the degradation of our culture and of long-standing respect for the Constitution will outlive even the memory of any given political debate. News cycles come and go. Presidents come and go. The Constitution — and the culture of liberty it is supposed to protect — must remain. Is it worth unlearning liberty to defend Trump’s tweets? Millions seem to think so. Millions are wrong.


Cycloptichorn
maxdancona
 
  0  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 02:00 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Fine with me, but the real threat to free speech in the US is Trump and his ilk, not a bunch of kids at Berkeley...


I am still not sure if you understand the concept of Free Speech.

Free Speech means that people you detest have the freedom to say things that offend you.

If you are only worried about the freedom of people with whom you agree... then you aren't really supporting free speech. If you see Trump as a threat, but not the "kids at Berkeley"... that isn't support for free speech. It's partisanship. Trump Supporters and Kids at Berkeley both have the right to express their opinions-- neither should be stifled.

Trump is pilloried every week everywhere from NPR to SNL. He has yet to shut down anyone. He might be tweeting about it, but I don't see much of a threat.




wmwcjr
 
  3  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 02:17 pm
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/protest-neo-nazis-lessons-german-history-phtz/
Quote:
How Should We Protest Neo-Nazis?
Lessons From German History

We have an ethical obligation to stand against fascists and racists in a way that doesn't help them.

October 10, 2017 by The Conversation US

Laurie Marhoefer, University of Washington

After the murder of Heather Heyer in Charlottesville, many people are asking themselves what they should do if Nazis rally in their city. Should they put their bodies on the line in counterdemonstrations? Some say yes.

History says no. Take it from me: I study the original Nazis.

We have an ethical obligation to stand against fascism and racism. But we also have an ethical obligation to do so in a way that doesn’t help the fascists and racists more than it hurts them.

History repeats itself

Charlottesville was right out of the Nazi playbook. In the 1920s, the Nazi Party was just one political party among many in a democratic system, running for seats in Germany’s Parliament. For most of that time, it was a small, marginal group. In 1933, riding a wave of popular support, it seized power and set up a dictatorship. The rest is well-known.

It was in 1927, while still on the political fringes, that the Nazi Party scheduled a rally in a decidedly hostile location – the Berlin district of Wedding. Wedding was so left-of-center that the neighborhood had the nickname “Red Wedding,” red being the color of the Communist Party. The Nazis often held rallies right where their enemies lived, to provoke them.

The people of Wedding were determined to fight back against fascism in their neighborhood. On the day of the rally, hundreds of Nazis descended on Wedding. Hundreds of their opponents showed up too, organized by the local Communist Party. The antifascists tried to disrupt the rally, heckling the speakers. Nazi thugs retaliated. There was a massive brawl. Almost 100 people were injured.

I imagine the people of Wedding felt they had won that day. They had courageously sent a message: Fascism was not welcome.

But historians believe events like the rally in Wedding helped the Nazis build a dictatorship. Yes, the brawl got them media attention. But what was far, far more important was how it fed an escalating spiral of street violence. That violence helped the fascists enormously.

Violent confrontations with antifascists gave the Nazis a chance to paint themselves as the victims of a pugnacious, lawless left. They seized it.

It worked. We know now that many Germans supported the fascists because they were terrified of leftist violence in the streets. Germans opened their morning newspapers and saw reports of clashes like the one in Wedding. It looked like a bloody tide of civil war was rising in their cities. Voters and opposition politicians alike came to believe the government needed special police powers to stop violent leftists. Dictatorship grew attractive. The fact that the Nazis themselves were fomenting the violence didn’t seem to matter.

One of Hitler’s biggest steps to dictatorial power was to gain emergency police powers, which he claimed he needed to suppress leftist violence.

The left takes the heat

In the court of public opinion, accusations of mayhem and chaos in the streets will, as a rule, tend to stick against the left, not the right.

This was true in Germany in the 1920s. It was true even when opponents of fascism acted in self-defense or tried to use relatively mild tactics, such as heckling. It is true in the United States today, where even peaceful rallies against racist violence are branded riots in the making.

Today, right extremists are going around the country staging rallies just like the one in 1927 in Wedding. According to the civil rights advocacy organization the Southern Poverty Law Center, they pick places where they know antifascists are present, like university campuses. They come spoiling for physical confrontation. Then they and their allies spin it to their advantage.

I watched this very thing happen steps from my office on the University of Washington campus. Last year, a right extremist speaker came. He was met by a counterprotest. One of his supporters shot a counterprotester. On stage, in the moments after the shooting, the right extremist speaker claimed that his opponents had sought to stop him from speaking “by killing people.” The fact that it was one of the speaker’s supporters, a right extremist and Trump backer, who engaged in what prosecutors now claim was an unprovoked and premeditated act of violence, has never made national news.

We saw this play out after Charlottesville, too. President Donald Trump said there was violence “on both sides.” It was an incredible claim. Heyer, a peaceful protester, and 19 other people were intentionally hit by a neo-Nazi driving a car. He seemed to portray Charlottesville as another example of what he has referred to elsewhere as “violence in our streets and chaos in our communities,” including, it seems, Black Lives Matter, which is a nonviolent movement against violence. He stirred up fear. Trump recently said that police are too constrained by existing law.

President Trump tried it again during the largely peaceful protests in Boston – he called the tens of thousands who gathered there to protest racism and Nazism “anti-police agitators,” though later, in a characteristic about-face, he praised them.

President Trump’s claims are hitting their mark. A CBS News poll found that a majority of Republicans thought his description of who was to blame for the violence in Charlottesville was “accurate.”

This violence, and the rhetoric about it coming from the administration, are echoes – faint but nevertheless frightening echoes – of a well-documented pattern, a pathway by which democracies devolve into dictatorships.

The Antifa

There’s an additional wrinkle: the antifa. When Nazis and white supremacists rally, the antifa are likely to show up, too.

“Antifa” is short for antifascists, though the name by no means includes everyone who opposes fascism. The antifa is a relatively small movement of the far left, with ties to anarchism. It arose in Europe’s punk scene in the 1980s to fight neo-Nazism.

The antifa says that because Nazism and white supremacy are violent, we must use any means necessary to stop them. This includes physical means, like what they did on my campus: forming a crowd to block ticket-holders from entering a venue to hear a right extremist speak.

The antifa’s tactics often backfire, just like those of Germany’s communist opposition to Nazism did in the 1920s. Confrontations escalate. Public opinion often blames the left no matter the circumstances.

What to do?

One solution: Hold a counterevent that doesn’t involve physical proximity to the right extremists. The Southern Poverty Law Center has published a helpful guide. Among its recommendations: If the alt-right rallies, “organize a joyful protest” well away from them. Ask people they have targeted to speak. But “as hard as it may be to resist yelling at alt-right speakers, do not confront them.”

This does not mean ignoring Nazis. It means standing up to them in a way that denies them a chance for bloodshed.

The ConversationThe cause Heather Heyer died for is best defended by avoiding the physical confrontation that the people who are responsible for her death want.

Laurie Marhoefer, Assistant Professor of History, University of Washington

This article was originally published on The Conversation. Read the original article.





Setanta
 
  4  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 02:19 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
The lock-step adherence to ideology of the far right is one of the most sinister things in a discussion of rising fascism in the United States. Fascism not only relies upon, it insists upon it. The concomitant of this insistence upon ideological "purity" is the one party state. Japan was informally a one party state from the mid-1920s, and officially became a one party state in 1942. Italy was a one party state from 1928. Croatia was a one party state from 1941 (having declared their independence of Yugoslavia, and formed a fascist government in support of the Nazis). Turkey was a one party state from 1923 to 1945. Metaxas in Greece was PM from 1936, and, as a great admirer of Hitler, had been attempting to form a one party state when that buffoon Mussolini invaded Greece. Spain was a one party state from 1938 until the death of Franco in 1975. Of course, Hitler's first act after the passage of the enabling act was to outlaw all political parties other than the NSDAP. I personally don't see an ounce of difference between the one party, so-called Marxist state of Stalin and the classic European fascists.

The purging of ideologically unsound Republicans would just be the first step on the long road down into fascism. As already noted, many rightwingnuts are now calling for the Democratic Party to be outlawed.

This is real, and it is serious. It's not just about students squabbling in the streets, as idiots like Max want to characterize it. This is the planned and orchestrated and well-financed effort to take over the U. S. government by plutocrats like the Koch brothers.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 03:32 pm
@Setanta,
What planet do you live on Setanta?

In reality there is no sinister lock-step adherence to the ideology of the far right. The presidents own party has voted against him. Several judges have ruled against him (and they still have heads attached to their necks). Rosie ODonnell is still alive and well. Steven Colbert makes jokes at the presidents expense nightly. Reporters are not being rounded up. No one is being disappeared. Democracy is working the way it is supposed to work.

What happened is that your side lost an election to a president who makes tweets. Deal with it.

Yelling around yelling "Nazi Nazi" is not going to help your side (in fact that is part of the reason that Hillary lost). If you don't like Trump... then do what it takes to win the next election. This starts with taking a deep breath, dropping the chicken little routine and figuring out how to create a message that doesn't revolve around insulting the American people.


reasoning logic
 
  1  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 03:46 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Maybe I should read more of what you have to say, You seem to be sooo smart.

What is your view of Hillary and the DNC?
Lash
 
  1  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 04:58 pm
@maxdancona,
Nods. S’true. The Dems won’t be in a position to capitalize on GOP disarray unless they CHANGE.
0 Replies
 
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 05:58 pm
@Olivier5,
I know, I know. I sort of did anyway, after all these years of reading what I can, but Tobias Jones' book,The Dark Heart of Italy, straightened romantic me out further, while also writing a lot about the good stuff. Scary **** for your friend.
You might or well might not agree with him, but I take him as a pretty fair writer. That may be the last thing you want to read about.
Anyway, Hl.

Not that we in the US are all swell, don't get me started. Fascism in the US? Yes.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 07:36 pm
@ossobucotemp,
In the recent election in France, there a qualified woman with legal and political experience who would have been the first woman president. She was beaten by a newcomer, a man whose only experience was in business.

I don't think anyone claimed it was sexism that made her lose. I criticize France a lot. But at least in this way they seem to have their heads on straight.

You all are putting partisanship over principle. Principles hold true no matter which ideological camp it benefits.



0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Fri 13 Oct, 2017 07:51 pm
@wmwcjr,
Bill, Excellent article, very thought provoking!
 

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