29
   

Rising fascism in the US

 
 
Lash
 
  2  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 05:10 am
@Walter Hinteler,
If they are punching you in the face would be my first clue.
Olivier5
 
  3  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 05:11 am
@Lash,
Who says where the difference lies between one and the other? Slippery slope... tut tut tut...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 05:16 am
@Lash,
So generally, everyone can hide his/her face. A decision, if it is rightful is only done after e.g. someone is punching another one in the face.

How does this differ from unmasked persons who punch someone in the face?
izzythepush
 
  4  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 05:34 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

The sloppy comment about Mexicans by Trump received a lot of pushback. You can observe in the media and the streets, when he makes these sloppy, hyperbolic, catch-all statements, he's met with resistance.


Not from his base he's not. He's pandering/confirming their prejudices. Maybe the Neo Nazis are losing steam but Trump gave them a huge head of steam in the first place. Attitudes that once people would have kept to themselves are now being publicly aired. Police are still getting away with racist murder, literally. There's a long way to go before America is out of the woods.

Quote:
Police in St Louis, Missouri, have come under fire for chanting after clearing protests over the acquittal of an officer who shot dead a black man.
The chant, "whose street, our street", is a phrase often repeated by those demonstrating against the verdict.
Jason Stockley, 36, was cleared on Friday of murdering Anthony Lamar Smith, 24, who was fatally shot after a police pursuit in 2011.
More than 120 people were arrested after a third night of raucous protests.
Hundreds of police dressed in riot gear patrolled downtown St Louis on Sunday night, making arrests and seizing at least five weapons, Police Chief Lawrence O'Toole said early on Monday.
"I'm proud to tell you the city of St Louis is safe and the police owned tonight," he said at a news conference. "We're in control. This is our city and we're going to protect it."
Hours earlier, some members of the police department sparked outrage when they were heard chanting, "whose street, our street," after breaking up demonstrations, according to US media reports.
St Louis Post-Dispatch photographer David Carson, who first reported the chant, tweeted the commander at the scene did not hear the chant, but said it was not acceptable and he would address it.
Mr Carson also tweeted footage purporting to show police officers chanting the phrase.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41306935
Lash
 
  0  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 05:41 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Certain locations have security measures that the public has to follow if you want to enter. I also have to have my pocketbook searched, my body scanned to get in a courthouse etc.

Antifa and the KKK and carousers at Halloween have the right, currently, to cover their faces in public. Antifa claims the right to physically assault people they disagree with. I think it's reasonable to assume they are covering their faces to get away with violence, but I still would only unmask them after arrest for violence -- but those pictures should definitely be publicized.

I don't see hypocrisy in my views re antifa and observant Muslim women, but if you do, I'd appreciate you telling me. Self-awareness is a good thing.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 05:46 am
@izzythepush,
Our police have been getting away with murder since Jim Crow, probably before...

It is coming to a head, but if juries won't find killer cops guilty, I don't see a solution.

I was excited about the Bernie Sanders' plan to attack the problem. It is deeply entrenched throughout the law enforcement system. I and others have written about it pretty extensively here.
Glennn
 
  -4  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 07:19 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
You can dispute the facts as much as you want, just don't expect the rest of us to see you as anything other than a Nazi sympathiser, because that's what Nazi sympathisers do.

And there it is! To simply ask questions about the "facts" is to be a Nazi sympathizer. I would suggest that your attitude is a defense mechanism you use to avoid dialogue. And that is your right.
Glennn
 
  -4  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 07:25 am
@izzythepush,
Concenring the science side of Zyklon B (its properties) there is this to consider:
_______________________________

If high concentrations of hydrogen cyanide are used, as in American execution chambers, death occurs in a period of 10 minutes or even later. During the process, the victim is therefore exposed to a high overdose concentration of hydrogen cyanide. Technically this is not possible with Zyklon B, since the Zyklon B carrier base releases the gas slowly (50% in 30 to 90 minutes, according to the temperature and relative humidity). The distribution of the gas throughout the chamber from a few sources of hydrogen cyanide only, and the absorption of the gas by the moist walls and the nearby victims would further delay the process. Killing all the victims in a few (less than five) minutes would be impossible. Even during the use of very large quantities of Zyklon B.

The ventilation system, if it existed, did not have the performance to clear the chambers in the time frame attested to. Assuming that the victims died quickly from the high concentrations of toxic gas, then the workers in the Sonderkommando would also have been killed by the gas. Working without gas masks equipped with a filter is totally inconceivable; at high concentrations of poison gas, even these are very unsafe. Heavy respiratory devices must be worn at concentrations of over 0.5 Vol.%, which would render the removal of the bodies much more difficult. Contamination through the skin must be expected during heavy work, involving perspiration, and due to the high concentrations of hydrogen cyanide on the skin of the victims. At the same time, such concentrations are sufficient to put a stop to the workers' ability to work (dizziness, nausea, etc.). Protective clothing is therefore required.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 09:39 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

BillW wrote:

These parties rallies are marginalized by counter protests that are always many times more massive. They haven't got any traction - except now with tRump one of them. This is a situation we haven't faced before. Time will tell.

Still, your historical experience with McCarthyism may explain your ferrocious support to free speech now: a few decades ago, the US was jailing hundreds of American people and destroying the careers and lives of thousands just because they were leftists. That must be traumatic. Hence all the "slipery slope" talk. You've been on that slope not so long ago.

Just like Europe's historical experience with nazism made her alergic to nazi speech.


I was 5 then, no personal experience. I also think the Republican party suffered because of it.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 09:41 am
@Glennn,
And now you're bleating because you're called out. The master race? You're having a laugh.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 09:43 am
@BillW,
Sorry, i meant the US historical experience with McCartyism, not your personal one.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 09:44 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

Our police have been getting away with murder since Jim Crow, probably before...


Just a bit of chicken and egg reasoning here but would your police be getting away with or even committing racist murders in the first place if it was illegal to say All n words are rapists/murderers/criminals/monkeys?

Not saying it would, just kicking it about a bit.
Lash
 
  1  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 09:59 am
@izzythepush,
I hear you. It's a reasonable question that's hard for me to answer without my bias.

I'm headed off to work, and I'll think about it today.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 10:01 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Sorry, i meant the US historical experience with McCartyism, not your personal one.


The US historical experience with this in my vew is that we are not going to ever let something like this happen again. To be labeled a McCarthyite for most people is an insult.

However, let me point out that one of McCarthy's lawyers was Roy Cohn. Cohn is a mentor to Donald Trump. From the NY Times:

"
Decades later, Mr. Cohn’s influence on Mr. Trump is unmistakable. Mr. Trump’s wrecking ball of a presidential bid — the gleeful smearing of his opponents, the embracing of bluster as brand — has been a Roy Cohn number on a grand scale. Mr. Trump’s response to the Orlando massacre, with his ominous warnings of a terrorist attack that could wipe out the country and his conspiratorial suggestions of a Muslim fifth column in the United States, seemed to have been ripped straight out of the Cohn playbook.
"

How does Trump stand on McCarthy? I don't have a ready answer, but Trump does love authoritarianism to the fullest!
Glennn
 
  -2  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 10:15 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
And now you're bleating because you're called out.

Contrary to your perception of the matter, you're being asked to address my post if you care to. Obviously you don't care to. And that's fine.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 10:28 am
@BillW,
BillW wrote:
To be labeled a McCarthyite for most people is an insult.


there's a certain chunk of Americans that feels otherwise

http://www.gopusa.com/time-for-deplorables-to-boycott-hollywood/

Quote:
jimwg, it is a DAMNED SHAME that Joe McCarthy was CRUCIFIED for trying to “out” these disloyal Communists LOONS in the 1950s, because it is obvious in retrospect that he was ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about them and their enthusiastic cooperation with the COMMUNISTS to undermine and DESTROY our country and our liberties.


http://www.gopusa.com/aclu-launches-nationwide-resistance-training/

Quote:
Old Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy, derided and ridiculed as he was, was in the end dead right. The Government, Hollywood, Unions and the North Eastern elites were chock full of communists.

History is repeating itself.


http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/presidential-campaign/290279-mccarthyism-returns-to-america

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/134272/newt-gingrich-well-way-full-blown-mccarthyism

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/17/trumps-ideology-test-could-bring-back-a-hated-mccarthy-era-law/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2013/04/26/schlafly-bring-back-mccarthyism/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/11/23/donald-trump-and-21st-century-mccarthyism/?utm_term=.eafb069fafd7

Quote:
It’s all eerily similar to a claim made by a U.S. senator in Wheeling, W.Va., 65 years ago: “I have here in my hand a list of 205 [State Department employees] that were known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party.” Sen. Joe McCarthy never revealed where he got that list; the number changed from 205 all the way down to seven, and he never provided any concrete evidence. But, as Trump knows, McCarthy’s lack of evidence was no hindrance to tapping into the fears of a portion of the U.S. electorate. In those days, communists were coming for you; now, Muslims and immigrants are, and in both cases, the U.S. government won’t stop them. The message remains: Be afraid.


the messaging seems to be working

we see it with a couple of A2K posters who are eternally afraid of the other (not sure why, but at A2k it has seemed most prevalent in the Florida contingent)
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 10:41 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Who decides why someone does it?


You do Walter. Look for the people throwing rocks, breaking windows and starting fires.

It's not that difficult.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  4  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 10:44 am
@Glennn,
I don't care to. No good can come of quibbling the figures of the Holocaust. Why not tell us all what noble motivations you have for such, because I can't see that the motivation is anything other than deeply ingrained anti-Semitism.
Below viewing threshold (view)
Olivier5
 
  2  
Tue 19 Sep, 2017 12:40 pm
@BillW,
Would you agree though that the US 'fierce' defense of free speech (as compared to Europeans) could be due, at least in part, to the collective memory of McCarty's witch hunt? I get a sense of 'been there done that, and hated it'.

If true, then the American attitude to regulating free speech would be based on historical experience, like the European attitude to Nazism.
 

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