29
   

Rising fascism in the US

 
 
Glennn
 
  -3  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 07:06 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
40,000 people killed in America in 2023 by guns.

140,000 people killed in America by alcohol. And everyone who has a bottle of booze in their house is directly responsible for every one of those deaths!

Still sounds dumb, doesn't it?

I've already researched the school shootings. If a drug deal gone bad at two in the morning results in a stray bullet lodged in a telephone pole on school property, that was dumbly listed as a school shooting.

If you'd like, I'll put them all in front of your eyes . . . again.
Glennn
 
  -3  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 07:10 am
@PoshSpice,
Quote:
Can you use only logic to convince me that I am personally responsible for the crimes of other people?

That's like asking someone in the throes of hysteria to think clearly. Not likely to happen.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 07:16 am
@PoshSpice,
Logic doesn't work.

The rate of gun deaths in America is enormous compared to other "liberal democracies."

The only difference is America's gun laws, ergo they're the cause.

That's about as logical as it gets.

You are uncomfortable with thst so you try to muddy the waters and blame other things like horror comics, video nasties or video games instead of addressing the real issue.

Funny how you're calling me emotional when it's your schools being shot up.

Almost all mass shootings are comitted with legally owned guns, they're all "responsible gun owners" until they start shooting.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 09:25 am
@Glennn,
Does US law prohibit alcohol abusers from obtaining firearms? Surveys say that about 1/3 of deadly firearm shootings are done by alcoholics. (As far as I know the law prohibits someone from buying a gun if they are “an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance.” But alcohol is excluded from the federal definition of depressant and is not considered a controlled substance.)

Do alcoholics (or other drug addicts) get free hospital and psychiatric and psychologic therapy? (Alcohol prevention in particular, but also medical/psychotherapeutic treatment is very helpful for alcohol problems.)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 09:27 am
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:
I've already researched the school shootings.
If you published that research, a link would be helpful.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 09:47 am
Notice the selective outrage and "virtue signalling in reverse" being played in this little game. It's important to show how morally upsetting Israel's Gaza campaign is (but not the massacres conducted by the Hamas terrorists), but it's equally important to show that school shootings in the US aren't anything to be concerned about because everyone knows how easy it is to identify potential shooters, that psychological counseling is ubiquitous, and the only reason these shootings occur is because the "authorities" want these tragic events to happen in order to rationalize the confiscation of guns. u/izzythepush may be making an emotional argument but at least it's based on consistent compassion, universally applied.
PoshSpice
 
  -1  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 09:57 am
@izzythepush,
You made several errors in your previous post.

Gun laws don’t kill people.

This statement is also inaccurate. I’m not uncomfortable, and while the items you raise may have tangential contributions to shootings, I don’t make those claims.
Quote:
You are uncomfortable with thst so you try to muddy the waters and blame other things like horror comics, video nasties or video games instead of addressing the real issue.


This statement is also incorrect.
Quote:
Almost all mass shootings are comitted with legally owned guns, they're all "responsible gun owners" until they start shooting.

_____________

I’ll be back later to make my argument.

izzythepush
 
  0  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 09:58 am
@hightor,
Hamas actions happened in early October.

I don't recall anybody praising or excusing Hamas' actions.

Since then Israel's actions have been entirely disproportionate.

Over 10,000 Palestinian children killed with your weapons.

You may think that's no big deal and dismiss concern as virtue signalling.

You may find this hard to believe but outside of America people get upset at children being killed.

Virtue signalling is a phrase used by people incapable of compassion.
0 Replies
 
PoshSpice
 
  0  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 09:59 am
@hightor,
You misconstrued a statement in your narrative.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 10:00 am
@PoshSpice,
Sorry, you're very pleased with the amount of school shootings.

Your laws are the reason school shootings happen.



0 Replies
 
PoshSpice
 
  -1  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 10:01 am
@PoshSpice,
I strongly agree with this statement:

Virtue signalling is a phrase used by people incapable of compassion.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 10:10 am
someone wrote:
And, just to avoid useless detours into intentional distraction, I’ve decided to just ignore your comments from now on.

I was hoping someone actually meant what they said. Mr. Green
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 10:35 am
Quote:
I don't recall anybody praising or excusing Hamas' actions.

I don't recall anyone condemning them either. One person even suggested that no atrocities occurred.

Quote:
Since then Israel's actions have been entirely disproportionate.

I don't dispute that. Never have.

Quote:
You may think that's no big deal and dismiss concern as virtue signalling.

u/glennn was the one that made that charge, not I. My comment was about "virtue signalling in reverse" which is equally lacking in compassion, a signal to a certain audience that "I'm not concerned about this." When Haley claimed the US Civil War was fought over government restrictions on "freedom", that was an example of virtue signalling in reverse.

Quote:
You may find this hard to believe but outside of America people get upset at children being killed.

What's hard to believe is the apparent selectivity of some people's outrage. Great to use the Gazan tragedy as a cudgel but when it comes to school shootings here, losing access to firearms would be the real tragedy.

Quote:
Virtue signalling is a phrase used by people incapable of compassion.

And it's always applied to people on "the other side" of the debate. It may have been a useful term once but it's just become another way to shift responsibility and diminish other people's concerns.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 10:37 am
It's not either or, it's possible to have sane gun laws and legislate against alcohol misuse.

Quote:
Nearly 3,000 offenders in England and Wales wearing sobriety tags this Christmas
UK government plans to double number of offenders on devices aimed at reducing alcohol-driven crime

The number of offenders fitted with “sobriety tags” that can tell probation officers if they have been drinking and potentially land them back in jail has increased by more than 47% this Christmas compared with last year, government figures show.

There were about 2,800 people in England and Wales wearing the tags this festive season compared with 1,900 last year after the government said it would increase use of the devices aimed at reducing alcohol-fuelled crime.

Initial data shows that offenders fitted with the tags managed to stay sober 97% of the time on average. The devices can detect if an offender has been drinking by analysing their sweat.

Government investment is aimed at nearly doubling the number of defendants on tags at any one time by 2025.

If an offender has had a drink an alert will be sent to the probation officer who can take action. The tags are so accurate they will not be triggered by foods that contain alcohol, but alcoholic drinks will raise the alarm and offenders face being sent to prison.

About 39% of all violent crime in the UK involves alcohol, including domestic abuse, which can rise during the festive period, figures provided by charities such as Women’s Aid show.

The justice secretary, Alex Chalk KC, said: “The festive season is a time of celebration but a small minority can take it too far. We’re keeping communities safe by tagging a record number of offenders this Christmas period. These innovative alcohol tags act as an important deterrent to offenders and come with a clear message: step out of line and you could end up behind bars.”

The devices are part of the government’s £156m investment in tagging technology which means the UK has remained among the world leaders in the use of tags to fight crime and keep people safe.

The tags were first rolled out in 2020 as a punishment for alcohol-fuelled crimes and are also used to help keep the public safe from offenders considered likely to commit crimes when drunk.

Roughly 20% of offenders on probation are classed as having a drinking problem, so tags play a part in helping to cut alcohol-fuelled crime, which causes untold misery for victims and lands society with a £21bn bill each year.

It comes after the justice secretary vowed to consider tougher community sentences amid concerns from MPs on all sides of the house that proposed plans to address prison overcrowding would allow more offenders to escape punishment.

The former home secretary Priti Patel said proposals risked “letting some types of offenders off the hook”, and the former policing minister Kit Malthouse urged ministers to look at “alternative disposals to prison … to satisfy that requirement from victims for there to be a sense of punishment”.

The measures include expanding the so-called home detention curfew scheme to make some offenders sentenced to more than four years eligible for release on a tag up to six months before their scheduled release date.


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/29/nearly-3000-offenders-in-england-and-wales-fitted-with-sobriety-tag-over-christmas
0 Replies
 
thack45
 
  2  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 10:52 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Notice the selective outrage and "virtue signalling in reverse" being played in this little game. It's important to show how morally upsetting Israel's Gaza campaign is (but not the massacres conducted by the Hamas terrorists), but it's equally important to show that school shootings in the US aren't anything to be concerned about because everyone knows how easy it is to identify potential shooters, that psychological counseling is ubiquitous, and the only reason these shootings occur is because the "authorities" want these tragic events to happen in order to rationalize the confiscation of guns. u/izzythepush may be making an emotional argument but at least it's based on consistent compassion, universally applied.


Maybe I don't have this quite right, but it seems as though this would all be a lot easier for the tidy righties if Biden would flat out condemn the Israeli government's revenge murder campaign. Then they could just call him a typical puss liberal Marxist who sides with terrorists, instead of pretending to give a **** about all the dead Palestinians and tapdancing around these wobbly tangents.
Glennn
 
  -1  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 11:16 am
@thack45,
No, you have it quite right. The only thing prolonging the death, starvation, and disease of hundreds of thousands of human beings in Gaza RIGHT NOW is the biden administration's desire for it to continue . . . and their desire to provide unconditional material support for this crime against humanity.

Ask someone here whether or not a war crime is occurring in Gaza right now and see what they come up with.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 11:17 am
@thack45,
That's so true.

Anti-Muslim prejudice might be even stronger than US/Israel solidarity and he may feel that losing some of his base is less damaging than criticizing Netanyahu's campaign.

Plus he's on record as saying that he's a "Zionist", which wasn't an unusual political position to have back in the '70s and early '80s. He might be wary of turning his back on an old ally. Oddly enough, the Likud faction in Israel has no problem turning its back on the US.

And there may be some secret understanding between the US and Israel concerning nuclear weapons and Iran which ties our hands. Strategic nuclear concerns are often communicated through back channels, in the dark.

But I agree with you. I wish he'd do something like that – actually I wish he'd already done that. I believe the State Department is really frustrated with the way this conflict has been developing. It's interfering with a lot of other important issues.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 11:25 am
@thack45,
I have been an outspoken supporter of Palestinian self determination from my first day on A2K.

Check my posts if you don't believe me.

Liberals are not Marxists either.

I'm a Socialist, always have been.

Check my posts if you don't believe me.

You're the one excusing the slaughter of 20,000+ Palestinians.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 11:29 am
@hightor,
I thought you had me on ignore.

After pointing out Lash's "hypocrisy" you really take the biscuit.

And you have a track record of running away from your words as well, you called people of faith stupid and now you're backing down over your use of the phrase virtue signalling.

This bullshit is par for the course.

And if you understood my posts you'd realise I'm not supporting America's insane gun laws, the opposite in fact.

hightor
 
  3  
Fri 29 Dec, 2023 12:16 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I thought you had me on ignore.

I guess you thought wrong. But after your insulting and uncomprehending post it might be a good idea.
Quote:
After pointing out Lash's "hypocrisy" you really take the biscuit.

I didn't say she was a "hypocrite", I merely communicated my disappointment – it was too good to be true.
Quote:
...you called people of faith stupid and now you're backing down over your use of the phrase virtue signalling.

I said that belief in an afterlife suggested that one might be "gullible". And I never accused you, or anyone else, of "virtue signalling". It was u/glennn who introduced that term, first applying it to Biden.
Quote:
And if you understood my posts you'd realise I'm not supporting America's insane gun laws, the opposite in fact.

You've clearly misunderstood everything I've written here today. I never said you supported our stupid gun laws – you made that point clearly. And I thought I made mine clear as well. I was defending your moral consistency as opposed to some of the other people here who are falling over themselves to denounce Biden and Israel as murderers but whose seem oddly unconcerned with the level of gun violence in the USA.
 

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