29
   

Rising fascism in the US

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Tue 1 Nov, 2022 11:53 am
@Lash,
The COVID-19 pandemic started in Wuhan, only very few dispute this.
Your source wrote:
Coronavirus disease 19 (COVID-19), originated at Wuhan city of China in early December 2019


They don't say at all that the virus originated there.
But
Your source wrote:
The virus was originated in bats and human transmission primarily occurs through direct, indirect, or close contact with infected people through infected secretions such as respiratory secretions, saliva or through respiratory droplets that are expelled when an infected person coughs, sneezes, or speaks.
[...]
The coronaviruses of zoonotic origin ....


0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Tue 1 Nov, 2022 12:03 pm
@Lash,
Quote:
The virus originated in Wuhan.

Let me understand you. You're saying that, unequivocally, there was no transmission from live animals to humans in the "wet" market in Wuhan? And that the particular virus we call COVID-19 escaped from the research lab in Wuhan where it was developed – either during routine research or intentionally as a bioweapon?

These findings, from this past July, support the origin at the wet market:

https://plantbasednews.org/news/science/wuhan-wet-market-most-likely-origin-of-covid/

https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/scientist-now-believes-covid-started-wuhans-wet-market-heres-why

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/26/health/wuhan-market-covid-19/index.html

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2022/7/26/23279102/where-did-covid-19-come-from-new-reearch-confirms-wet-market-not-lab-university-of-utah

******************************************************************

There was an early report, from May 2020, which denied an origin at the wet market but subsequent research disputes the information.

******************************************************************

Knowing the sources you often quote, you may have read the article written a year later, by Jeffrey Sachs in The Intercept:

https://theintercept.com/2022/05/19/covid-lab-leak-evidence-jeffrey-sachs/

There's nothing wrong with questioning any "official" account of the origins. In fact, Biden called for an investigation of possible lab origins around the same time:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57260009

*************************************************************

I'm not going to criticize you for saying that the pandemic began in Wuhan but I would challenge you to provide evidence that it was the result of a lab leak, if that's what you mean. Since the Chinese have been quite uncooperative, we don't have any proof; this is just speculation and possibly politically-inspired misinformation:

Quote:
“The IC — and the global scientific community — lacks clinical samples or a complete understanding of epidemiological data from the earliest COVID-19 cases,” the report said. “If we obtain information on the earliest cases that identified a location of interest or occupational exposure, it may alter our evaluation of hypotheses.”


The thing is, since there's a scientifically-backed consensus that the disease was zoonotic in origin what purpose is served by insistence on the lab leak theory when there is no proof? Animal/human contact is responsible for many of the communicable diseases which affect humans. Closing wet markets and shutting down the commercial trade in wild animals would go a long way toward preventing future outbreaks of new viruses. Pointing a finger at China without sufficient evidence allows us to heap opprobrium on the country but achieves little else since we are already in an adversarial relationship with them.

**************************************************************

In my search I came across quite a few accusations charging the Chinese with intentionally developing the virus and blaming the pandemic on a lab leak. This line from Wikipedia sort of sums it up:

Quote:

As the COVID-19 pandemic progressed, lab leak theories became less rooted in science, adopting instead the trappings of conspiracy theory; by 2022 most lab leak proponents were promoting a narrative with conspiracist components.

lab leak theory



hightor
 
  2  
Tue 1 Nov, 2022 12:08 pm
@Lash,
COVID-19: An Insight into SARS-CoV-2 Pandemic Originated at Wuhan City in Hubei Province of China

Isn't this study from 2020?
oralloy
 
  0  
Tue 1 Nov, 2022 02:25 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
Let me understand you. You're saying that, unequivocally, there was no transmission from live animals to humans in the "wet" market in Wuhan? And that the particular virus we call COVID-19 escaped from the research lab in Wuhan where it was developed – either during routine research or intentionally as a bioweapon?

Covid is actually the exact opposite of what people look for in a bioweapon.

What people want in a bioweapon is very high lethality to the people who are exposed directly to the weapon, and zero transmission to anyone else.

The two classic bioweapons are "antibiotic-resistant anthrax spores" and "botulinum toxin" (both in a form that carries well in the air).
hightor
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2022 02:53 pm
@oralloy,
That's a very good point.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Tue 1 Nov, 2022 03:11 pm
@hightor,
Before people were afraid to say it, yes.
hightor
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2022 03:27 pm
@Lash,
When they didn't know as much about it, sure, that makes sense.
Lash
 
  0  
Tue 1 Nov, 2022 05:07 pm
@hightor,
Patient 0 was in Wuhan, before and after it was acceptable to say so.
vikorr
 
  2  
Tue 1 Nov, 2022 08:23 pm
@Lash,
I'm wondering why is it important where it started?

I'm not for censorship at all of these sorts of things, bnt where it started is essentially meaningless, and what is achieved by talking about it like it has some meaning?
coluber2001
 
  2  
Tue 1 Nov, 2022 08:46 pm
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Wed 2 Nov, 2022 02:52 am
@Lash,
Quote:
Patient 0 was in Wuhan, before and after it was acceptable to say so.
True, the earliest cases were identified in Wuhan. Before the outbreak occurred it certainly wouldn't have been acceptable – or even meaningful – to talk about a "patient 0 in Wutan". But there was a lot of talk about "patient 0 in Wutan" subsequent to the appearance of the disease. The term can be used in an abstract sense and doesn't necessarily refer to a known human. Obviously someone had to come down with the disease before anyone else but whether that person is ever identified depends on an accurate diagnosis, which is difficult prior to the discovery of the actual virus. "Patient 0" might have been diagnosed with the flu. It's not a matter of it being "unacceptable" to talk about "patient 0 in Wuhan", it's simply unproductive.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Wed 2 Nov, 2022 03:54 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Quote:
Patient 0 was in Wuhan, before and after it was acceptable to say so.
True, the earliest cases were identified in Wuhan. Before the outbreak occurred it certainly wouldn't have been acceptable – or even meaningful – to talk about a "patient 0 in Wutan". But there was a lot of talk about "patient 0 in Wutan" subsequent to the appearance of the disease. The term can be used in an abstract sense and doesn't necessarily refer to a known human. Obviously someone had to come down with the disease before anyone else but whether that person is ever identified depends on an accurate diagnosis, which is difficult prior to the discovery of the actual virus. "Patient 0" might have been diagnosed with the flu. It's not a matter of it being "unacceptable" to talk about "patient 0 in Wuhan", it's simply unproductive.



Actually, it is more than "unproductive"...although it IS unproductive.

It is like talking about (describing) the life forms on a planet circling a star somewhere...even though we cannot know for sure there is a life form on the planet...which itself we cannot know for certain exists.

I suspect we will never KNOW the genesis of Covid19...in part because of the reluctance of China...which like most countries throughout the world, attempts to protect itself in these kinds of situations.
Lash
 
  -1  
Wed 2 Nov, 2022 04:57 am
@hightor,
I guess we’ll disagree. I think pertinent facts in the investigation of the origin of a pandemic is incredibly productive—and vital.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -2  
Wed 2 Nov, 2022 05:03 am
@vikorr,
I’m sort of dumbfounded by your question.

Since I was a teenager, whenever something goes wrong in my life, when I find myself in situation I don’t like, the first thing I do is trace the origin of the error—to learn from it and avoid its recurrence.

Is this not a universal practice?
Lash
 
  -2  
Wed 2 Nov, 2022 05:23 am
Radish Sinatra wants your money. All of it.

I’ve been watching the horror of social credit scores in China, wondering how long it would be before the shadowy power in this world tried to pull that **** on the west.

Wait is over.

Be advised.

https://youtu.be/vTOYJ4QCPnI
hightor
 
  3  
Wed 2 Nov, 2022 05:54 am
@Lash,
The histrionics made it unwatchable. But it led me to this article:

Kristin Tate wrote:
The new domestic “War on Terror,” kicked off by the riot on Jan. 6, has prompted several web giants to unveil predecessors to what effectively could become a soft social credit system by the end of this decade. Relying on an indirect hand from D.C., our social betters in corporate America will attempt to force the most profound changes our society has seen during the internet era.

China’s social credit system is a combination of government and business surveillance that gives citizens a “score” that can restrict the ability of individuals to take actions — such as purchasing plane tickets, acquiring property or taking loans — because of behaviors. Given the position of several major American companies, a similar system may be coming here sooner than you think.

Last week, PayPal announced a partnership with the left-wing Southern Poverty Law Center to “investigate” the role of “white supremacists” and propagators of “anti-government” rhetoric, subjective labels that potentially could impact a large number of groups or people using their service. PayPal says the collected information will be shared with other financial firms and politicians. Facebook is taking similar measures, recently introducing messages that ask users to snitch on their potentially “extremist” friends, which considering the platform’s bias seems mainly to target the political right. At the same time, Facebook and Microsoft are working with several other web giants and the United Nations on a database to block potential extremist content.

The actions of these major companies may seem logical in an internet riddled with scams and crime. After all, nobody will defend far-right militias or white supremacist groups using these platforms for their odious goals. However, the same issue with government censorship exists with corporate censorship: If there is a line, who draws it? Will the distinction between mundane politics and extremism be a “I’ll know it when I see it” scenario, as former Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart described obscenity? If so, will there be individuals able to unilaterally remove people’s effective ability to use the internet? Could a Facebook employee equate Ben Shapiro with David Duke, and remove his account?

The implications of these crackdown efforts will be significantly more broad than just prohibiting Donald Trump from tweeting at 3 a.m. Young people cannot effectively function in society if blocked from using Facebook, Twitter, Gmail, Uber, Amazon, PayPal, Venmo and other financial transaction systems. Some banking platforms already have announced a ban on certain legal purchases, such as firearms. The growth of such restrictions, which will only accelerate with support from (usually) left-wing politicians, could create a system in which individuals who do not hold certain political views could be blocked from polite society and left unable to make a living.

The potential scope of the soft social credit system under construction is enormous. The same companies that can track your activities and give you corporate rewards for compliant behavior could utilize their powers to block transactions, add surcharges or restrict your use of products. At what point does free speech — be it against biological males playing in girls’ sports, questioning vaccine side effects, or advocating for gun rights — make someone a target in this new system? When does your debit card get canceled over old tweets, your home loan denied for homeschooling your kids, or your eBay account invalidated because a friend flagged you for posting a Gadsden flag?

Federal fingerprints aren’t directly on recent actions — yet. The creation of a “Digital Dollar” would put an exclamation point on a new social credit score. Working in conjunction with major tech companies, citizens not convicted of a crime could lose their ability to transact any business. In time, decentralized forms of money, such as cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin, may be the main means for dissidents to operate — as long as the federal government doesn’t move to squash them. If the Fed and members of Congress are skeptical of crypto now, its use by political undesirables could lead to a furtive effort to severely restrict or ban these currencies.

Until and unless there is an organized pushback, our future could track with those of increasingly illiberal societies. Just last week, the British government announced its own version of a health social credit system. China’s system was announced only seven years ago. Considering the growth of algorithms and dependence on tech giants, the ability to track, censor and eventually punish ordinary citizens will be mindboggling by 2030. America’s descent into a 21st century Gilded Age directed by tech titans isn’t an inevitability. However, do you know anyone who would take a 5 percent Amazon coupon in exchange for a “call to action”? Or someone who would replace their Facebook profile picture to avoid being locked out?

Peer pressure, trendy movements, and the ability to comply with the new system with the click of a mouse combine all of the worst elements of dopamine-chasing Americans. As it grows in breadth and power, what may be most surprising about our new social credit system won’t be collective fear of it, but rather how quickly most people will fall in line.

thehill

Tate's a libertarian so that explains some of her alarm but I agree with her last paragraph – USAmericans are going to love this. Big tech has been training us to expect this – and to like it. "Alexa, what's my bank balance?" Wait until some disaster causes widespread power failures and victims can't access their money for days.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Wed 2 Nov, 2022 06:15 am
@Frank Apisa,
The most plausible explanation for the origin of the SARS-CoV-2 pathogen seems to be that the virus entered the Wuhan market through a farmed or wild-caught host animal. The animal probably got it from a bat. Breeding, capturing, transporting, displaying and, of course, slaughtering at the market all place enormous stress on the animal, suppressing its immune system and encouraging pathogens to multiply.
This kind of jumping over as a zoonosis has been documented in this way for many other pathogens, including SARS-CoV-1 in 2003.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -2  
Wed 2 Nov, 2022 06:22 am
@hightor,
Not a fan of Brand? LOL.

Thanks for bringing the article.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -2  
Wed 2 Nov, 2022 07:34 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Quote:
The virus originated in Wuhan.

Let me understand you. You're saying that, unequivocally, there was no transmission from live animals to humans in the "wet" market in Wuhan? And that the particular virus we call COVID-19 escaped from the research lab in Wuhan where it was developed – either during routine research or intentionally as a bioweapon?


Please show me where you think I said that.
revelette1
 
  2  
Wed 2 Nov, 2022 07:53 am
@Lash,
It depends on what you meant by "originate." Do you mean to say it started there by a lab leak or a deliberate bioweapon? Or that it started there, perhaps by the means of which Walter explained?

This is why it is hard to know exactly what you sometimes mean, a lot of times you won't come right out and just state something but you word your messages in a way that it could mean something, leaving room for denying you said what it seemed you were saying. (not wording what I mean very well, and so I am leaving lots of room for hits, but perhaps others will know what I am ineptly trying to say.)
 

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