29
   

Rising fascism in the US

 
 
Mame
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2022 04:14 pm
@BillW,
I got what you meant, BillW. It's scandalous, but to be expected, and, again, nothing new.
BillW
 
  3  
Mon 2 May, 2022 04:22 pm
@Mame,
Thanks Mame, and still the Right wants to make the wealthy pay less. Paying less means giving them more money they get from the middle class.
Mame
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2022 04:46 pm
@BillW,
I wonder what the total amount for Covid payouts amounted to in scams. I read something in our paper - it's huge, and doesn't even account for every situation. Didn't I read that Trump's government named some big outfits and shamed them into returning the money? Airlines and such.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  3  
Mon 2 May, 2022 04:48 pm
This from CNBC to date:

Criminals have stolen close to $100 billion in pandemic relief funds, the U.S. Secret Service said Tuesday.

The stolen funds were diverted by fraudsters from the Small Business Administration’s Paycheck Protection Program, the Economic Injury Disaster Loan program and a another program set up to dole out unemployment assistance funds nationwide.

More than $2.3 billion in stolen funds have been recovered so far, resulting in the arrest of more than 100 suspects who span the spectrum from individuals to organized groups, according to the agency. The government has shelled out about $3.5 trillion in Covid relief money since early 2020, when the pandemic began.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Mon 2 May, 2022 05:39 pm
@BillW,
I've no issue with me being wrong in attempting to interpret what you said - hence why I said 'if so, then...'

I'm also aware of how the megarich pay little to no tax. Moderately wealthy people can do this too.

What though, was the point of your post?

0 Replies
 
Mrknowspeople
 
  -1  
Mon 2 May, 2022 06:12 pm
@Mame,
USA - 8.73 - You're tied with Germany. USA! USA!
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -3  
Mon 2 May, 2022 07:13 pm
@blatham,
Mame didn’t cite ****. She used a source I cited previously.
Everything you said was based on **** all.
Per usual.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -3  
Mon 2 May, 2022 07:15 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Lash wrote:

Define what you mean by freer if you want any response.


I don't even know what "freer" means. YOU were the one who wrote, " "The things that make us truly free aren’t available to most citizens, tho."

So I am trying to find out what you meant by that.

Being "truly free" obviously means "being freer (more free)."

So what did you mean by that?

By the way, if you do not want to discuss or explain what you wrote...no problem. You are under no obligation. Just tell me you do not want to talk about it.

I’m not interested in talking to you.
Lash
 
  -2  
Mon 2 May, 2022 07:18 pm
@vikorr,
I liked what you had to say.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Mon 2 May, 2022 07:22 pm
@BillW,
I agree. Glad more people know this and care about it.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Tue 3 May, 2022 02:59 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:


Frank Apisa wrote:

Lash wrote:

Define what you mean by freer if you want any response.


I don't even know what "freer" means. YOU were the one who wrote, " "The things that make us truly free aren’t available to most citizens, tho."

So I am trying to find out what you meant by that.

Being "truly free" obviously means "being freer (more free)."

So what did you mean by that?

By the way, if you do not want to discuss or explain what you wrote...no problem. You are under no obligation. Just tell me you do not want to talk about it.

I’m not interested in talking to you.


Okay.

But I would have been impressed if you could answer my question.

It was a tough one, wasn't it!
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Tue 3 May, 2022 05:42 am
vikorr wrote:

So I think this thread is a really important discussion - on the side of those that fear that it is sliding down a slope, and on the side of those that think that we have to give up some freedoms to co-exist peacefully.


All this hand-wringing about having to "give up our freedoms" – Lash said this as well – what "freedoms" are people being forced to give up? I can tell you that no government imposes more restrictions on my freedom than I do on myself. When we exercise self control, we deny ourselves "freedom" but with the understanding that it serves a greater good. When I stop after one glass and deny myself the freedom to consume an entire bottle of bourbon I sacrifice the pleasure of further intoxication with the knowledge that I'll enjoy a better night's sleep and be able to function effectively the next day.

Personal freedom isn't that different from social freedom. What social freedom are we being forced to give up? What are the consequences of the temporary loss of that freedom? What about the permanent loss? Sometimes I get the feeling that many people are mindlessly defending some abstract notion of unlimited freedom to do anything regardless of practical consequences, the "freedom fetish", a deluded concept which most of us outgrow in our late teens to early twenties.
Lash
 
  -2  
Tue 3 May, 2022 06:03 am
Truthfully, I have to say that so many losses of personal freedoms and personal rights lost in recent decades came flooding to mind—I didn’t know where to start.

This is in no way a definitive list, but it’s a good starting place.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/is-the-united-states-still-the-land-of-the-free/2012/01/04/gIQAvcD1wP_story.html

10 reasons the U.S. is no longer the land of the free
By Jonathan Turley
January 13, 2012
Every year, the State Department issues reports on individual rights in other countries, monitoring the passage of restrictive laws and regulations around the world. Iran, for example, has been criticized for denying fair public trials and limiting privacy, while Russia has been taken to task for undermining due process. Other countries have been condemned for the use of secret evidence and torture.

Even as we pass judgment on countries we consider unfree, Americans remain confident that any definition of a free nation must include their own — the land of free. Yet, the laws and practices of the land should shake that confidence. In the decade since Sept. 11, 2001, this country has comprehensively reduced civil liberties in the name of an expanded security state. The most recent example of this was the National Defense Authorization Act, signed Dec. 31, which allows for the indefinite detention of citizens. At what point does the reduction of individual rights in our country change how we define ourselves?

While each new national security power Washington has embraced was controversial when enacted, they are often discussed in isolation. But they don’t operate in isolation. They form a mosaic of powers under which our country could be considered, at least in part, authoritarian. Americans often proclaim our nation as a symbol of freedom to the world while dismissing nations such as Cuba and China as categorically unfree. Yet, objectively, we may be only half right. Those countries do lack basic individual rights such as due process, placing them outside any reasonable definition of “free,” but the United States now has much more in common with such regimes than anyone may like to admit.

These countries also have constitutions that purport to guarantee freedoms and rights. But their governments have broad discretion in denying those rights and few real avenues for challenges by citizens — precisely the problem with the new laws in this country.

The list of powers acquired by the U.S. government since 9/11 puts us in rather troubling company.

Assassination of U.S. citizens
President Obama has claimed, as President George W. Bush did before him, the right to order the killing of any citizen considered a terrorist or an abettor of terrorism. Last year, he approved the killing of U.S. citizen Anwar al-Awlaqi and another citizen under this claimed inherent authority. Last month, administration officials affirmed that power, stating that the president can order the assassination of any citizen whom he considers allied with terrorists. (Nations such as Nigeria, Iran and Syria have been routinely criticized for extrajudicial killings of enemies of the state.)

Indefinite detention
Under the law signed last month, terrorism suspects are to be held by the military; the president also has the authority to indefinitely detain citizens accused of terrorism. While the administration claims that this provision only codified existing law, experts widely contest this view, and the administration has opposed efforts to challenge such authority in federal courts. The government continues to claim the right to strip citizens of legal protections based on its sole discretion. (China recently codified a more limited detention law for its citizens, while countries such as Cambodia have been singled out by the United States for “prolonged detention.”)

Arbitrary justice
The president now decides whether a person will receive a trial in the federal courts or in a military tribunal, a system that has been ridiculed around the world for lacking basic due process protections. Bush claimed this authority in 2001, and Obama has continued the practice. (Egypt and China have been denounced for maintaining separate military justice systems for selected defendants, including civilians.)

Warrantless searches
The president may now order warrantless surveillance, including a new capability to force companies and organizations to turn over information on citizens’ finances, communications and associations. Bush acquired this sweeping power under the Patriot Act in 2001, and in 2011, Obama extended the power, including searches of everything from business documents to library records. The government can use “national security letters” to demand, without probable cause, that organizations turn over information on citizens — and order them not to reveal the disclosure to the affected party. (Saudi Arabia and Pakistan operate under laws that allow the government to engage in widespread discretionary surveillance.)

Secret evidence
The government now routinely uses secret evidence to detain individuals and employs secret evidence in federal and military courts. It also forces the dismissal of cases against the United States by simply filing declarations that the cases would make the government reveal classified information that would harm national security — a claim made in a variety of privacy lawsuits and largely accepted by federal judges without question. Even legal opinions, cited as the basis for the government’s actions under the Bush and Obama administrations, have been classified. This allows the government to claim secret legal arguments to support secret proceedings using secret evidence. In addition, some cases never make it to court at all. The federal courts routinely deny constitutional challenges to policies and programs under a narrow definition of standing to bring a case.

War crimes
The world clamored for prosecutions of those responsible for waterboarding terrorism suspects during the Bush administration, but the Obama administration said in 2009 that it would not allow CIA employees to be investigated or prosecuted for such actions. This gutted not just treaty obligations but the Nuremberg principles of international law. When courts in countries such as Spain moved to investigate Bush officials for war crimes, the Obama administration reportedly urged foreign officials not to allow such cases to proceed, despite the fact that the United States has long claimed the same authority with regard to alleged war criminals in other countries. (Various nations have resisted investigations of officials accused of war crimes and torture. Some, such as Serbia and Chile, eventually relented to comply with international law; countries that have denied independent investigations include Iran, Syria and China.)

Secret court
The government has increased its use of the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which has expanded its secret warrants to include individuals deemed to be aiding or abetting hostile foreign governments or organizations. In 2011, Obama renewed these powers, including allowing secret searches of individuals who are not part of an identifiable terrorist group. The administration has asserted the right to ignore congressional limits on such surveillance. (Pakistan places national security surveillance under the unchecked powers of the military or intelligence services.)

Immunity from judicial review
Like the Bush administration, the Obama administration has successfully pushed for immunity for companies that assist in warrantless surveillance of citizens, blocking the ability of citizens to challenge the violation of privacy. (Similarly, China has maintained sweeping immunity claims both inside and outside the country and routinely blocks lawsuits against private companies.)

Continual monitoring of citizens
The Obama administration has successfully defended its claim that it can use GPS devices to monitor every move of targeted citizens without securing any court order or review. (Saudi Arabia has installed massive public surveillance systems, while Cuba is notorious for active monitoring of selected citizens.)

Extraordinary renditions
The government now has the ability to transfer both citizens and noncitizens to another country under a system known as extraordinary rendition, which has been denounced as using other countries, such as Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan, to torture suspects. The Obama administration says it is not continuing the abuses of this practice under Bush, but it insists on the unfettered right to order such transfers — including the possible transfer of U.S. citizens.

These new laws have come with an infusion of money into an expanded security system on the state and federal levels, including more public surveillance cameras, tens of thousands of security personnel and a massive expansion of a terrorist-chasing bureaucracy.

Some politicians shrug and say these increased powers are merely a response to the times we live in. Thus, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) could declare in an interview last spring without objection that “free speech is a great idea, but we’re in a war.” Of course, terrorism will never “surrender” and end this particular “war.”

Other politicians rationalize that, while such powers may exist, it really comes down to how they are used. This is a common response by liberals who cannot bring themselves to denounce Obama as they did Bush. Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), for instance, has insisted that Congress is not making any decision on indefinite detention: “That is a decision which we leave where it belongs — in the executive branch.”

And in a signing statement with the defense authorization bill, Obama said he does not intend to use the latest power to indefinitely imprison citizens. Yet, he still accepted the power as a sort of regretful autocrat.

An authoritarian nation is defined not just by the use of authoritarian powers, but by the ability to use them. If a president can take away your freedom or your life on his own authority, all rights become little more than a discretionary grant subject to executive will.

The framers lived under autocratic rule and understood this danger better than we do. James Madison famously warned that we needed a system that did not depend on the good intentions or motivations of our rulers: “If men were angels, no government would be necessary.”

Benjamin Franklin was more direct. In 1787, a Mrs. Powel confronted Franklin after the signing of the Constitution and asked, “Well, Doctor, what have we got — a republic or a monarchy?” His response was a bit chilling: “A republic, Madam, if you can keep it.”

Since 9/11, we have created the very government the framers feared: a government with sweeping and largely unchecked powers resting on the hope that they will be used wisely.

The indefinite-detention provision in the defense authorization bill seemed to many civil libertarians like a betrayal by Obama. While the president had promised to veto the law over that provision, Levin, a sponsor of the bill, disclosed on the Senate floor that it was in fact the White House that approved the removal of any exception for citizens from indefinite detention.

Dishonesty from politicians is nothing new for Americans. The real question is whether we are lying to ourselves when we call this country the land of the free.

Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro professor of public interest law at George Washington University
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -2  
Tue 3 May, 2022 06:06 am
https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-use-unmarked-vehicles-to-grab-protesters-in-portland

Federal Officers Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab People In Portland, DHS Confirms

July 17, 20201:04 PM ET
————————
My constitutional right to protest without being beaten, assaulted, and kidnapped by federal goons.
Lash
 
  -3  
Tue 3 May, 2022 06:55 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

vikorr wrote:

So I think this thread is a really important discussion - on the side of those that fear that it is sliding down a slope, and on the side of those that think that we have to give up some freedoms to co-exist peacefully.


All this hand-wringing about having to "give up our freedoms" – Lash said this as well – what "freedoms" are people being forced to give up? I can tell you that no government imposes more restrictions on my freedom than I do on myself. When we exercise self control, we deny ourselves "freedom" but with the understanding that it serves a greater good. When I stop after one glass and deny myself the freedom to consume an entire bottle of bourbon I sacrifice the pleasure of further intoxication with the knowledge that I'll enjoy a better night's sleep and be able to function effectively the next day.

Personal freedom isn't that different from social freedom. What social freedom are we being forced to give up? What are the consequences of the temporary loss of that freedom? What about the permanent loss? Sometimes I get the feeling that many people are mindlessly defending some abstract notion of unlimited freedom to do anything regardless of practical consequences, the "freedom fetish", a deluded concept which most of us outgrow in our late teens to early twenties.

What a tight bubble you must live in to write this silly dreck.
hightor
 
  3  
Tue 3 May, 2022 07:00 am
@Lash,
Quote:
Federal Officers Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab People In Portland, DHS Confirms

In times of civil unrest such measures – "The tactic appears to be another escalation in federal force deployed on Portland city streets as federal officials and President Trump have said they plan to quell nightly protests outside the federal courthouse and Multnomah County Justice Center that have lasted for more than six weeks." – aren't all that unusual. It's not as if citizens minding their own business are being beaten, assaulted, and kidnapped by the government. When peaceful protests turn violent it gives the state enormous opportunity to test out their means of repression.
Quote:
My constitutional right to protest without being beaten, assaulted, and kidnapped by federal goons.

I thought we were talking about freedoms. "Rights", as constructs which reflect the will of the state, aren't the same thing.
hightor
 
  3  
Tue 3 May, 2022 07:08 am
@Lash,
Quote:
What a tight bubble you must live in to write this silly dreck.

The point is that restriction of freedom isn't solely the prerogative of an oppressive state and that we choose not to exercise various freedoms all the time.
Lash
 
  -3  
Tue 3 May, 2022 07:12 am
@hightor,
This is why I wanted to know Frank’s understanding of terms before wasting time.

You are a famous quibbler, and I’m not surprised in the least that you’re trying to negate facts that describe in detail losses of personal freedoms suffered by American citizens due to intentional action by presidents and other paid mercenaries.

War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is truth.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -3  
Tue 3 May, 2022 07:37 am
@hightor,
We should also trim our toenails once a week, but that’s also not relevant to this conversation.
hightor
 
  3  
Tue 3 May, 2022 08:57 am
@Lash,
Lash, you seem committed to making this into some sort of personal argument, which was not my intention. Heavy-handed tactics which restrict individual freedom are characteristically employed by the state when conditions of lawlessness arise and property destruction occurs. In democratic countries such tactics are reserved for use when deemed necessary but not employed generally; authoritarian countries are inclined to celebrate this aspect of government power which is understated, but still there, in democracies. The thing is, in the USA we notice when "police state" tactics are employed because they are dramatic, violent, and rarely used. But there are other, more subtle limitations on freedom which surround us but tend to go unnoticed. For instance, the nearly total dependence on digital technology and the amount of control the tech companies have on our daily lives is quite different from the initial vision of a connected world that developers of the web foresaw. It's getting hard to even buy a household appliance that isn't connected to the internet. The climate crisis is another phenomenon which is slowly, but inexorably, beginning to impinge on human freedom but you never hear the freedom-fighting Oath Keepers express any concern about summertime temperatures in Phoenix. Our transportation policies severely restrict the freedom of poor people to travel as public services are few and automobiles are rapidly becoming unaffordable. Anyway, I never said anything about what we should do, so your irrelevant toenail comment isn't really apt.
 

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