40
   

I'll Never Vote for Hillary Clinton

 
 
parados
 
  6  
Wed 18 May, 2016 08:48 am
@edgarblythe,
Somebody needs to investigate Fox news and why they have interns running their switchers.

Did you notice that Hillary also lost about 5,000 votes at the same time?

The conspiracy seems to be Fox news or the person that made this video. It certainly isn't about Sanders losing actual votes.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  4  
Wed 18 May, 2016 08:51 am
@engineer,
The main problem I have with the democratic leadership (and indeed the republican leadership) is with this stupid multi-level delegate assigning system.

Clinton won Nevada by 5 points. That should have been the end of it. There never should have been the convention on Saturday.

The post-vote process is unnecessary and it just allows people to attempt to steal the election from the people who voted (like Bernie supporters tried to do on the 2nd pass).
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  5  
Wed 18 May, 2016 08:53 am
@edgarblythe,

Damn edgar, what are you suggesting? Everyone paying attention knew that she had an 85-90% advantage with Louisville voters (who are 20% black), and that Louisville was one of the last precincts to report. Why can't you EVER admit that Bernie just fricking LOST a primary?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  6  
Wed 18 May, 2016 08:55 am
@edgarblythe,
You don't seem to understand how credentialing works at a convention, edgar. A person has to be elected as a delegate. They have to show up. They have to have proper ID. If a regular delegate doesn't show up then alternates can become delegates if they have the proper ID and were elected as alternates.

That is some conspiracy to change the paperwork on alternates expecting the regular delegates won't show up and they can deny the alternates.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  -1  
Wed 18 May, 2016 09:22 am
http://brainsandeggs.blogspot.com/
PDiddie's blog

Wednesday, May 18, 2016
Revolution news update (3rd in a continuing series)
(If you missed the first two posts, they're here and here.)

As the dust is still unsettled following the events in Nevada and the results in Kentucky and Oregon from last night, one thing is clear: the battle between insurgent progressives and the Democratic establishment is now fully engaged.

And the sheep are nervous. Their lackeys in the media have turned ominous. Twitter is the zeitgeist this cycle and if you want to see what's unfolding, look at these two trending topics the morning after the tie in the Bluegrass State last night. Look fast, though, because it won't be relevant to this conversation a week from now.

The first thing we should establish, for the benefit of the slow-thinking Hillaryians among us, is that the revolution is here, and it's here to stay. It's not going away after Bernie finally loses the nomination fight in a week or two, it's going to be heard one final time in Philadelphia, and then it's on to November. Calling the revolutionaries 'violent', using the D Team's rules against them in a tyranny of the majority, and even a little putzy snark casually directed at anybody who dares to think outside the two-party box just feeds the beast.

I don't think most Hillbots get that, though, and I'm lovin' that. On to the headlines ...

-- The pot's boiling over.

It was really just a matter of time.
With the Democratic presidential primary in its twilight, frustration within the ranks over the party's handling of the primary process spilled out this week as Bernie Sanders supporters lashed out at party leaders, arguing that their candidate has been treated unfairly.
The public outpouring of anger began last weekend at the Nevada Democratic Party convention, where Sanders supporters who said Hillary Clinton's backers had subverted party rules shouted down pro-Clinton speakers and sent threatening messages to state party Chairwoman Roberta Lange after posting her phone number and address on social media.
That led Democratic National Committee Chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid and other top party leaders to demand an apology and publicly ruminate on the possibility of violence at the Democratic National Convention in July as they prepare for a general election battle with Donald Trump.

A Democratic Party managed by the likes of Ms. Lange and Ms. Wasserman-Schultz is simply not a party I can stand to be a part of.

Throughout the year, Sanders and his supporters have complained about the nomination process and ways they believe it has helped Clinton, including debates held on Saturday nights, closed primaries in major states such as New York, and the use of superdelegates -- essentially free-agent party and union stalwarts who are overwhelmingly backing Clinton.

This has to change, because if it doesn't, their Democratic Party has set themselves up for a massive and catastrophic failure in November.

But whether that happens or not: What kind of loser will Bernie Sanders be? I'm hoping it's a sore one, because his supporters certainly are ... and have every right to be. In the best example I've seen yet of the establishment's cluelessness, there's so much wrong in this piece I almost didn't include it, but you know, blind hogs and acorns. Here's the nut.

The next chapter of Democratic politics isn’t about Hillary Clinton vs. Bernie Sanders; that battle has already been resolved. It is the war between Clinton-ism (the pragmatic progressivism that has defined the party since 1992) and Sanders-ism (an unapologetic socialism that is more ambitious, and more risky, than anything the party has proposed since the New Deal). And wars tend to be bloody.
DrewDad
 
  3  
Wed 18 May, 2016 09:33 am
@edgarblythe,
PDiddie, whoever the hell that is.... wrote:

The next chapter of Democratic politics isn’t about Hillary Clinton vs. Bernie Sanders; that battle has already been resolved. It is the war between Clinton-ism (the pragmatic progressivism that has defined the party since 1992) and Sanders-ism (an unapologetic socialism that is more ambitious, and more risky, than anything the party has proposed since the New Deal). And wars tend to be bloody.

I've posted before that the real headline this primary season should be: "Satisfied Obama Voters Show Up in Droves."

PDiddie, whoever the hell that is.... wrote:
tyranny of the majority

Um... Pretty much an admission that the Democratic party is not choosing Sanders as its nominee.
maporsche
 
  2  
Wed 18 May, 2016 09:45 am
@DrewDad,
C'mon man, PDiddie is a dude in Texas who can't even afford the $15 per year to own his own website address.

The dude obviously has his crap together and we should just take everything he says at face value because he knows his stuff.
Debra Law
 
  -2  
Wed 18 May, 2016 09:51 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Lash wrote:
Any violence that happened is in direct response to being cheated.

Incitement to riot is not an excuse to riot. Provocation does not justify a violent response.

Now, I don't think that just because some Sanders supporters got out of line means that Sanders is a bad person, or that all Sanders supporters are hooligans, but Sanders' response tells me a lot about who he is.

Violence should not be used as a springboard, or an amplifier, to further one's own agenda, which is what Sanders did, here.


Let's look at the Democratic Party elite ... they steamrolled over the delegates who were sent to the state convention. They proposed a rule change wherein votes would be by voice only, (no actual counting), and the chairwoman would be the sole judge of the voices ... and then they had a voice vote to ratify the rule change ... the nays won over the yeas ... but the chairwoman declared that the yeas prevailed. And on and on ...

Of course some convention attendees were appalled and displayed anger. Some even booed! At the end, when the chairwoman smashed her gavel into the podium and scurried away from the debacle she presided over ... some angry attendee threw a chair. Someone vandalized the local DNC office building and wrote "cheat" on the building.

The convention was managed in a manner that didn't even bother to portray an appearance of fairness. The party elite acted badly and a few attendees acted badly in response. Other state conventions were conducted fairly, why couldn't this one be conducted fairly too?

But then the haughty state party elite sent a seething letter to the national party office blaming Sanders for the debacle the party elite caused. Doesn't their response tell you a lot about the party elites? How dare the peons question the elite! They aren't the good little sheeple they're supposed to be and someone has to be held accountable!

Bernie responded that he didn't condone any violence or harrassment. But he did ask a very good question: Why are those people angry?

Also, where was the outrage when someone shot at his campaign office? and ransacked his staff's living quarters? Why wasn't the party elite calling upon Hillary to condemn the unacceptable behavior of her supporters?

The party's powerful elite behavior tells me a lot about the party. But no, you and others like you want to make Sanders personally responsible for millions and millions of people who are angry because their political system is corrupt. You don't care about the corruption ... only that millions of people are unhappy about the corruption and Sanders should just make them shut up.



Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Wed 18 May, 2016 09:54 am
@maporsche,
He's one of the members of this community. I haven't read his blog post but this kind of argument doesn't make much sense (attacking the messenger for not having a paid blog instead of addressing the message, it's not like any of you guys are issuing your screeds on paid blogs only here).
maporsche
 
  3  
Wed 18 May, 2016 09:59 am
@Robert Gentel,
Of course I understand that. No one takes what I say at face value either.

PDiddie is making huge claims that he's likely not in a position to know anything about. He has posted no credentials that mean anyone should take what he says seriously.

Additionally (and most importantly) HE is not the one we're discussing things with. He's not here to debate his article.

I'll dismiss the copy/paste that Edgar did as unimportant, untrustworthy, and un-credentialed (and many more 'uns').
Debra Law
 
  -2  
Wed 18 May, 2016 10:07 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

I am bemused by the claim that someone who was never a Democrat, until it became convenient for a presidential run, can "save" the Democratic Party. I completely disagree with the premise of that screed. This has been a cult of personality--it is, to the contrary, all about Bernie Sanders.


This is all about the people. This is about millions and millions of people who are unhappy because their political system is corrupt.

Change the narrative any way you want ... if that helps you sleep at night. But it won't make millions and millions of unhappy people suddenly become content that their elected politicians serve the lobbyists and big money interests to their detriment.
revelette2
 
  2  
Wed 18 May, 2016 10:10 am
@Debra Law,
Quote:
This is all about the people. This is about millions and millions of people who are unhappy because their political system is corrupt.



Obviously more millions are happy with the system as Clinton has more votes than does Sanders or anyone else running for President.
DrewDad
 
  4  
Wed 18 May, 2016 10:13 am
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:
This is all about the people. This is about millions and millions of people who are unhappy because their political system is corrupt.

Putting aside the fact that you're projecting your own feelings onto all of the other folks who have voted for Sanders....

...isn't it also about the millions and millions of people who voted for Clinton? Who may possibly think the system is flawed but who are willing to work to improve it rather than just tearing it down without having something with which to replace it?

DrewDad
 
  4  
Wed 18 May, 2016 10:14 am
@DrewDad,
I suspect there are millions and millions of Sanders voters who, come election day and they're faced with a choice of "Trump vs. Clinton" will, perhaps grudgingly, tick the box for Clinton.
Debra Law
 
  0  
Wed 18 May, 2016 10:18 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

I was disappointed that Bernie became a Democrat before running for president. He did so, I assume, because he bought into the prevailing thought that no independent candidate could ever win a national election. But no modern day candidate ever won state-wide election either until he did it. Then I stepped back from that disappointment and came to embrace it for the shakeup he's brought to the party. Trump has a similar longevity to the Republicans and brought a similar shakeup there. I've long been opposed to the stronghold that parties have on our politics and I appreciate what both men have done to expose the power and control that parties have over our elections.

I'm not a big Bernie fan, although I do think it would be hard to find anyone more committed and dedicated to his message than he is. I don't quite agree that it's a cult of personality about the man so much as it is an embrace of his lifelong commitment to his position against unchecked power of an elite class and his willingness to take it on from within. Maybe that's the same thing.


The "cult of personality" meme is just a manipulation to change the narrative. The same could be said about Obama ... and millions and millions of people supported him. Obama inspired people with his mantra, "a change we can believe in", but that promised change did not materialize. Bernie's voice is our voice. We ... millions and millions of "we" want change ... we abhor the corruption and the huge negative effect it has on our lives and on our children's lives. If the corruption continues, our future is bleak.
snood
 
  3  
Wed 18 May, 2016 10:20 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:

Quote:
This is all about the people. This is about millions and millions of people who are unhappy because their political system is corrupt.



Obviously more millions are happy with the system as Clinton has more votes than does Sanders or anyone else running for President.


I don't think they're necessarily "happy with the system". I think they looked at their options and made a choice.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  7  
Wed 18 May, 2016 10:20 am
@Debra Law,
Quote:
Let's look at the Democratic Party elite ... they steamrolled over the delegates who were sent to the state convention. They proposed a rule change wherein votes would be by voice only, (no actual counting), and the chairwoman would be the sole judge of the voices

In almost 30 years of personally attending caucuses and conventions, the chair has always been the judge of voice votes. Groups of people that yell from the back have always complained they aren't being listened to but it is pretty easy to tell which side has more from the front of the room.
ehBeth
 
  3  
Wed 18 May, 2016 10:22 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:
came to embrace it for the shakeup he's brought to the party. Trump has a similar longevity to the Republicans and brought a similar shakeup there.


has either party changed?

it certainly doesn't look like it from the outside

__

maybe two independents can change two existing parties - but they're going to have to consider the people who are members of those parties , not just independents they've brought in for temporary votes

I also think they are going to have to become members of those parties to effect meaningful change.
maporsche
 
  4  
Wed 18 May, 2016 10:25 am
@parados,
You don't understand parados....there is a CELL PHONE video (with professional, expert audio capabilities) inches from a Sanders supporter's yelling mouth that clearly shows that he won that voice vote.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  -1  
Wed 18 May, 2016 10:26 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Debra Law wrote:
You don't support Bernie Sanders,

Well, I currently support Clinton. If Sanders somehow wins the nomination, I fully intend to vote for him.

Debra Law wrote:
you don't support his democratic ideals,

Actually, I share most of them. The problem is, those ideals are not translating into real-world actions.

Debra Law wrote:
you don't support his inclusiveness,

His "inclusiveness" appeals mainly to angry white people. That's not enough to win the nomination or the election. Clinton learned that lesson back in 2008, which is why she's winning, now.

Debra Law wrote:
you don't care what anyone else has to say on the matter.

Sure, that's why I'm on a message board, reading other people's analyses and learning from them.

It is true that I don't much care what you or Edgar have to say, because really all you offer is seething anger.

If you really had "democratic ideals" you'd be saying something like, "hey, my candidate lost this time around. Let's learn from the experience and try again next election cycle."

You don't really want an election; you want a revolution. That's hardly a democratic ideal.

Debra Law wrote:
You're not convincing the "I'll never vote for Hillary Clinton" to become Hillary Clinton voters.

I wouldn't expect to.


Our delegation that traveled to the seat of power and to petition King George for fairness didn't succeed. Alas, win some, lose some.

Democratic ideals ... power elite gerrymandering, voter suppression, the revolving door for politicians in the pockets of big money interests, corruption so vile that it threatens our lives and our livelihoods ... those democratic ideals?
 

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