I'll Never Vote for Hillary Clinton

@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

And it's this kind of primary animosity that will dull Democrat enthusiasm for Clinton when she wins. It's not going to make people more likely to vote for her to have overstatement and fear mongering used to try to compel them.

I concur. Which is why I want to understand Edgar, since he's the one that opened with the salvo "I'll never vote for Hillary."

I have no animosity toward either Edgar or Sanders, nor will I no matter how Edgar votes or who wins the Democratic nomination.

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@Debra Law,

But you didn't answer the question.

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@Debra Law,

Debra Law wrote:

Between Bernie and Hillary, which one do you think will embroil us in armed conflicts throughout the world? How much more can our military personnel, our country, and our pocketbook bear? Veterans are committing suicide at alarming rates. We are trillions of dollars in debt. The world is not safer, but less safe due to the destabilizing effects of war in the middle east. I think Bernie will handle congressional obstruction just fine; I don't think Hillary will end the war-mongering. Our nation can't bear it. Do you remember what happened to the Soviet Union after a decade of war in Afghanistan? It collapsed . . . .

Trump is the only Republican candidate that has expressed unwillingness to get into foreign wars, but the rest of his 19th-Century mindset is dangerous and regressive.

If Bernie gets the nomination, I'll happily vote for him over any of the Republicans that are currently being fielded.

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@DrewDad,

The biggest problem in Texas is only 37% or less of the eligible Hispanics vote. If that increased to 60%, Texas would probably go blue in its statewide races.

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@DrewDad,

It would be great to see Texas become a Democratic state, that would change the whole country. But I think that's unlikely to happen within our lifetimes. The winner-take-all method of allocating delegates is unfortunate, it would be much better of a system if it were proportional and each vote mattered.

I guess one thing you seem to be saying that I'm taking away from this is that the votes are symbolic toward making Texas more of a chance of being a swing state, and I agree with that general idea. I just also think that if someone dedicates their symbolic vote toward something else (like registering dissatisfaction with the current Democratic candidate etc) it is all pretty much the same.

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@Robert Gentel,

I'm not sure if you're discussing the primary or the general election.

In the primary, our votes definitely count, especially since there are only two Democrats seeking the nomination. There will be a winner, and the delegates will be sent to the Democratic National Convention.

In the general election, Democrats are almost certain to be outvoted and Texas' electoral votes will go to the Republican candidate.

I hope everyone votes their conscience, in both the primary and general election, and doesn't decide to stay home just because their candidate didn't win the nomination.

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@DrewDad,

I mean the general election. Presumably the Bernie supporters will vote Bernie in the primaries. But if Clinton wins the nomination refraining from voting for Clinton is a choice that others here have questioned.

You say that you hope everyone votes their conscience but I don't get what's objectionable to not voting if that is where one's conscience leads you.

For example, I am not going to lie and jump through hoops to register in a swing state so my vote could actually count. The states I last had nexuses in are California and Texas. Pretty much the two states with the most pointless general election votes.

I would definitely not bother voting for Clinton because my vote won't count for anything other than symbolism anyway and while I think Clinton is a perfectly decent human being I do not like her politics enough to waste time on symbolic support for her.

You seem to have a preference against my position and think that I should vote Democrat in the general election anyway, but why? Not voting sends a message and makes as much difference (none) in the general election for me in Tx. I applaud those who are willing to spend more of their time on civic duty even when it's purely symbolic but I only see downsides for me, I lose time and money and gain no greater influence in the process.

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@parados,

If the Republicans don't give up on the anti-immigration plank they are doomed. I see hispanic voters increasingly being king makers in American politics.

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@Robert Gentel,

How can they change course now?

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Fear mongering is getting to overused to the point it has lost it's meaning. Snood has made a legitimate point that talk has a way of generating trends or thinking of other people. Not all states are states where votes don't matter. I am a democrat, I will support any democrat over a republican because I believe in the democrat platform and I do not believe in the republican platform, for that reason alone, no matter who gets it in the democrat ticket, I will vote for him or her. I will vote for Hillary in the primary because I believe she will be better president than Bernie who I believe is too one subject to be an effective president. I also believe any president right now will continue to be involved in conflicts overseas regardless of what they say right now because the world in general is in a terrible time. I wish the Arab spring of which Obama supported would have been more successful than it turned out to be. But it wasn't and we are dealing with some of that failure now plus the failure of the Iraq war plus problems with Russia and so forth. These problems will not go away with putting our heads in the sands and just ignoring them and I believe Hillary is better placed to deal with it. The rest to me is rhetoric that sound good. Moreover, on domestic issues, Hillary and Sanders are not far apart despite her ties to "big money." If like people say Hillary changes with the poles, that in itself is not a bad thing if the blacklivesmatters becomes more powerful, perhaps it would influence the unjust justice system of whoever ends up being elected. I think either one of them would be about the same despite Hillary's ties to private prisons.

I think the animosity comes from fervent Bernie supporters if the rest of the electric is anything like these threads.

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@revelette2,

revelette2 wrote:

I think the animosity comes from fervent Bernie supporters if the rest of the electric is anything like these threads.

I don't think the animosity is too one-sided. I have seen plenty of animosity going both ways across the internet. Bernie supporters are attacking Hillary and her supporters, Hillary supporters are definitely not immune to this and have done the same (notably with the "special place in hell" and all).

I find it all a bit regrettable and wish that Bernie supporters could be more reasonable about Hillary (she has plenty of flaws but we don't need to portray her as an evil monster) and wish the Hillary supporters too wouldn't demonize the Bernie supporters. I definitely think the rhetoric about them frequently reaches the level of fear mongering. Worst-case scenarios are too often bandied about in slippery slope arguments that are very tenuous in foundation.

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@Robert Gentel,

Why is politics so poisonous? Even the republican candidates are doing more than throwing mud.

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@Robert Gentel,

Apathy is the greatest threat to Democracy. This idea that "Texas has always gone red so it always will in the future" is the biggest roadblock to making real change in the state.

I think we'll see Texas go purple and then blue within a decade, unless the Republican party shifts left (which is certainly possible).

Betcha that we see a big push for registering the Hispanic population. That, as well as the continued influx of Californians and folks from up North, will push us more and more purple/blue.

1 Reply

@Debra Law,

Debra Law wrote:

snood wrote:

Quote:
I don't think Hillary will end the war-mongering.

That's definitely a legitimate worry with her. And I do understand the concern that she's a lover of war.

A simple, direct question - do you not have any worries or concerns about what Trump or (worse, IMO) Cruz might do as president?

Hillary and Cruz are the two worst possible choices ...

snood wrote:

You'd be a great politician.
From my observations of them, a prerequisite seems to be the ability to answer a question that wasn't asked, and not answer the question asked.

Do I have any worries and concerns? Yes for Hillary, Yes for Trump, and Yes for Cruz. Between the three, it is my opinion that Hillary and Cruz are the two worst possible choices. Trump was a progressive before he allegedly "evolved" into a conservative for the purpose of campaigning for the presidency on the Republican ticket.

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@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Apathy is the greatest threat to Democracy.

I guess this is the central thrust of our disagreement. I disagree with this premise. We'll probably not agree so won't belabor the point but having lived in countries with voluntary voting and extremely low turnout and mandatory voting I did not see greater democratic vitality when voting was mandatory and apathy toward voting thusly proscribed.

Quote:

This idea that "Texas has always gone red so it always will in the future" is the biggest roadblock to making real change in the state.

I don't know if it will always be so in the future but the biggest reason Texas has always been red is because it always had had a lot more red supporters than blue. I don't think apathy is the problem here but simple demographics that will likely change gradually.

Quote:

I think we'll see Texas go purple and then blue within a decade, unless the Republican party shifts left (which is certainly possible).

I see Republican party shifting much more likely, I don't see the Texas going blue within my lifetime. But that's just my wild guess, of course.

Quote:

Betcha that we see a big push for registering the Hispanic population. That, as well as the continued influx of Californians and folks from up North, will push us more and more purple/blue.

What's the movement like so far (I can look it up myself if you don't have it handy)?

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@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

Bernie versus any Republican loses 35 states. I said it first. He's a #hashtag not a winning candidate

I'm not falling for another hope and change candidate. Been there, done that.

I don't agree that Bernie loses.

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@maporsche,

I think you might underestimate the public appetite for another aspirational candidate. And if Trump wins then Bernie would be faced with another "hashtag" candidate. I don't know where to begin predicting who would win in that hypothetical race.

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@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

I concur. Which is why I want to understand Edgar, since he's the one that opened with the salvo "I'll never vote for Hillary."

1 Reply

@Lash,

Lash wrote:

Look at this. I don't like the Brrnie can't win narrative, but everything else resonates, particularly the take on the Clintons.

http://m.truthdig.com/report/item/bernie_sanders_phantom_movement_20160214

In other words, "Resistance is Futile".

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@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
Apathy is the greatest threat to Democracy.

I guess this is the central thrust of our disagreement. I disagree with this premise. We'll probably not agree so won't belabor the point but having lived in countries with voluntary voting and extremely low turnout and mandatory voting I did not see greater democratic vitality when voting was mandatory and apathy toward voting thusly proscribed.

OK, I was being a bit hyperbolic....

But "I'm not voting because I don't feel like voting" just seems qualitatively different from "I'm not voting because my vote won't change anything."

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I'll Never Vote for Hillary Clinton

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