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Attacks in Paris Stadium, concert hall

 
 
djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 02:52 pm
@hawkeye10,
i blame the humans

time to get rid of them
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:11 pm
@ossobuco,

Quote:
What did he think of the killers? “They are not Muslims. They are terrorists. The kids I grew up with weren’t like that.” Romain said he’d originally come from the gritty northern suburbs of Paris, home to a predominantly immigrant population and the scene of anti-government riots in 2005. He had arrived at the bar bearing a small olive tree. “It’s a symbol of hope, of peace,” he said.


Well, actually they are both. They may not share all of the beliefs of Mr. Romain and the kids he grew up with but I suspect that if asked they probably don't think he is a Muslim either.

For some reason there is an insistence by some people that there is such a thing as true Islam and true Muslims. Considering that there is a rather wide schism between the Sunni and Shiite sects I doubt there are many Muslims who would agree on what a true Muslim looks like.

Despite what so many would insist, it is relevant that these terrorists self-identify as Muslims and carry out their acts in the name of Allah. Certainly the uncounted millions of Muslims throughout the region who to some extent support ISIS believe they are Muslims. When 50 million or more people believe something, it's difficult to suggest what they believe is irrelevant.

If there were self-identified Christians or Hindus carrying out similar terrorist acts in the name of Jesus or Kali, I doubt very many people would be reluctant to call them what they were: Christians and Hindus.

Since being a Muslim is at the core of why Islamists do what they do, it seems foolish, at best, to insist that what they claim to be is irrelevant.

Hopefully there are millions more of Muslims who believe Islamists are not properly following the tenets of their religion, and if Walter is right and they now, as a result of this attacks, have decided to publicly demonstrate this belief throughout Europe, this is a very good thing.

Now they all have to join together to assist the authorities in locating and eradicating the jihadis in their midst. For the most part they all live in tight knit ethnic communities and a lot of them know what is being said in the local mosque and on the streets. Some, no doubt, have already provided valuable intelligence to the authorities whether for a price or out of principle as numerous terrorist plots have been foiled to date, but can more? How many people in one of these communities knows of something but refuses to go to the police? I don't have the answer to that question, but I believe that if the majority of Muslims want to help eradicate the threat of Islamists, it will eventually happen.

We may never be able to eliminate every act of terrorism, but we can significantly reduce the threat. First by destroying, not containing,ISIS. Not of course every current member of ISIS; that's not possible, but as long as there is a quasi state-like organization with considerable funds, weapons and the ability to plan and communicate, complex, coordinated attacks like the one last night are very possible. Crush their central operation, kill great numbers of their soldiers and scatter those remaining to the sands and not only will these sort of attacks be made nearly impossible, ISIS as a recruiter of lone wolf attackers will be substantially degraded.

Secondly hunt down and eliminate the existing cells in our cities, and here is where we need the help of moderate Muslims.

Finally remain vigilant and prepared to take action when new groups coalesce. Allowing them to reach even a Junior Varsity status only ensures they will at some point make it to the Varsity.

This is a war and it is ongoing. All declarations of victory in this war have been premature and politically expedient. Right now there is only one nation in the world where polio cases continue to arise within the general population: Nigeria. Those who have led the long fight to eradicate this disease know full well that it will not be over until they can overcome the barriers within that country that prevent the last stronghold of the disease from falling. They could say "Well, it's almost over. It only remains in one country in the world, and that's good enough," but they know that if they don't finish it off in Nigeria it could and probably will spread throughout the world again.

We have to view Islamism as the infectious disease it is.



ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:18 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I agree with that, fast read, Finn, though I take islamists as the new word for enraged killing machine, a specific group, not regular world wide muslims. but there are still many many many (as a friend used to say to illustrate a point, her last vestige of stuttering in childhood) who take anyone muslim as game to hate. Some of those hater people may be in positions to mess things up, for all of us, from stupidity. We need to watch out for ourselves too, including in our armed forces.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:24 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
How have I generalized Muslims?

I've acknowledged a distinct difference between Islamists and their supporters and, for lack of a better term, moderate Muslims. I've acknowledged that while some Muslims support ISIS, other choose to remain silent about them and still others have spoken and out and are assisting the authorities in fighting them.

And how does pointing out that Muslims die in this attack counter the generalizations you perceive? I suppose it might if someone was arguing that the West is at war with the world's entire population of Muslims, but who has made that claim?

Saying that not enough moderate Muslims are condemning the Islamists is hardly generalizing. It may be inaccurate, but the very statement implies that there is at least one major difference among Muslims.

There are hundreds of millions of Americans, but you don't seem to have difficulty ascribing certain characteristics to large segments of the population. If generalizing is so distasteful to you should you not only discuss Americans in terms of how individual Americans act or what individual Americans say?

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:25 pm
Quote:
Invoking the need for joint action after the attacks in Paris, foreign ministers of nearly 20 nations agreed Saturday to an ambitious yet incomplete plan for bringing peace to Syria and ending its role as a breeding ground for ISIS and other radical Islamic groups.

Countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia, which support different sides in the conflict, put aside their dispute to condemn the bombings and shootings that left at least 123 people in the French capital dead Friday. So did Moscow and Washington.

Standing next to Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov ahead of Saturday's full ministerial meeting, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry called the attacks "the most vile, horrendous, outrageous, unacceptable acts on the planet". He said they "encouraged us today to do even harder work to make progress and to help resolve the crises that we face."

"The events in Paris underscore the threat that Daesh poses to all of us," he later told reporters, referring by an alternate name to ISIS, which claimed responsibility for the Paris attacks. Kerry spoke in French for part of his post-meeting remarks, in a bow to the victims of those attacks.

Lavrov said there was "no justification for terrorist acts, and no justification for us not doing much more to defeat ISIS and al Nusra and the like," adding: "I hope that this meeting as well would allow us to move forward."

The plan presented by the two appeared to draw heavily on a recently circulated Russian initiative. With just two weeks elapsed since the Syria talks first convened, it could mark a significant advance, if successful.

http://news.yahoo.com/syria-talks-begin-vienna-under-pall-paris-attacks-094454124--politics.html

Putin is the only one who seems to have some idea of what to do.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:33 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
It doesn't occur to you that many live in fear or at least carefully?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:33 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
There are hundreds of millions of Americans, but you don't seem to have difficulty ascribing certain characteristics to large segments of the population. If generalizing is so distasteful to you should you not only discuss Americans in terms of how individual Americans act or what individual Americans say?
I haven't met all, only some hundreds. But I am aware that all have different character traits.
I always try to avoid to characterise something as "they". But I really must have fallen back to this bad attitude since you noticed it.
Sorry.
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:34 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I think many make that claim, just look at a2k posts.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:37 pm
@ossobuco,
Well I certainly agree that not all Muslims are, as you put it, "baddies," but anyone ascribing this belief to me hasn't bothered to read the numerous posts I have written on this subject and Walter made his point in a response to me.

In any case how does pointing out that Muslims were killed in this attack make it clear that they are not all the same, not all "baddies?"

It might prove that they were not part of the terrorist operation (but even then mistakes are made in the heat of battle) and it might prove that the perpetrators didn't care to take the time to distinguish between Muslims and non-Muslims while they dispatched their victims, but it doesn't prove anything else. It's a non sequitur.

It may seem like a small thing and it actually is but when people, like Walter, throw it out there they most often feel (as he essentially acknowledged) that they are somehow smugly trumping the generalization of bigots with a clear and inarguable fact.

"Muslims died too you know!" (Uh...OK and that proves what?)

Yes, tragically and even ironically, they did. I'm sorry, but how this is germane to a discussion with me is beyond me.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:40 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I always try to avoid to characterise something as "they".


They say it's going to rain

They say there's a secret facility in the midwest that They don't want you to know about

They say we're not wearing enough hats
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:47 pm
You may not have noticed but there seems to be a whipping up for war.

Anyone want a #3?

I will readily admit I don't read every word you say, so I might get you wrong.

Hatred of muslims in general is part of the conversation in the US, icky as I find it
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:48 pm
Yes it is horible, but it is a false flag, planned times ago, to limit our freedoms

So that we can get to the orwellian state!
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:49 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
You may not have noticed but there seems to be a whipping up for war.


In this case it is a global consensus that Syria needs to be solved, and that ISIS needs to be challenged. THis is a great thing. It all is the result of only Two things, Putin going in to Syria with his capable military and the ISIS attack on Paris.

Mountains can be moved under the right circumstances.
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:50 pm
@hawkeye10,
ISIS is a CIA Mossad operation!
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:52 pm
Quote:
You may not have noticed but there seems to be a whipping up for war.


of course:

Quote:
"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:54 pm
@Quehoniaomath,
Quehoniaomath wrote:

ISIS is a CIA Mossad operation!


ISIS is almost all Saddam's guys who were stupidly pushed out by the USA, them plus a rag tag band of Islamic jihadists that they have trained up very well.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:56 pm
@ossobuco,
Oh yes indeed.

I'm quite sure that fear is a reason for silence, but the same sort of fear has faced countless majorities intimidated by minorities. Some respond with courage and others do not. I don't think of Muslims as being any more or less cowardly than any other group of people. If others have been capable of overcoming their fear so are they.

I acknowledge this is easy for me to say, but they actually have more at stake in this matter than I do. The likelihood of me or my loved ones being the victim of a terrorist attacks is very minimal and less than the likelihood of a Muslim in Paris or London or even the US being a victim of a backlash triggered by one or more of these attacks.

As well the Islamists are not sullying something I hold sacred (aside, of course, from extinguishing sacred lives). Presumably the Muslims who essentially view these horrific acts the same way you and I do have the added outrage of knowing they are being carried out in the name of their religion.

I would hate to be someone who could have prevented a bloodbath by going to the police but failed to do so because I was afraid. Since I don't think most Muslims are all that different from me, I am assuming they feel the same. As it so happens, the burden in this regard is most likely to fall on them rather than me.

Any failure to tell the police important information is due to one or more factors: Fear of reprisal, indifference, a misplaced sense of loyalty to the Ummah, or sympathy and support for the goals of the terrorists. I've no idea how often any one of these factors may be in play, but I suspect they are probably all in play enough that no one is dominant.

One thing is fairly certain, the more they join together to combat the jihadis in their midst the less they will have to fear.
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:56 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
ISIS is almost all Saddam's guys who were stupidly pushed out by the USA, them plus a rag tag band of Islamic jihadists that they have trained up very well.


whatever
http://www.texemarrs.com/images/isis_windup_toy.jpg
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 03:59 pm
@Quehoniaomath,
Go ******* learn something, you are annoying.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/islamic-state-files-show-structure-of-islamist-terror-group-a-1029274.html
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 04:02 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

I think many make that claim, just look at a2k posts.


Perhaps, but I haven't, and again, Walter's statement was made in a response to me. If he wants to address those who believe there is a war between the West and anyone who identifies as a Muslim, he should, and spare me the not so subtle disapprobation
0 Replies
 
 

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