32
   

Attacks in Paris Stadium, concert hall

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 11:50 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
It certainly would have been an even more dramatic attack, if they had succeeded in entering the football stadium. (Everyone praises how the situation there had been handled by the French.)

Since yesterday evening the false bomb alarm in the German team hotel is seen differently than earlier.

The police of the states bordering France is set on alarm, goes patrols together with the federal [border] police, equipped with machine pistols.

Same along the border with Belgium (due to the latest events).
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 11:53 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Ultimately, such a war will be fought, and it will be led either by converted multi-culturalists like Hollande or by new leaders who capture the support of people who have had enough.


All one needs to do is look at how fast the ice is melting under Merkel's feet to understand that statement, all because of her advocating for uncontrolled and unlimited migration of non Europeans into and within Europe. It just does not work, it can not work, and she should have known that from the get-go but did not. When fantasy bumps up against reality reality will win every time.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 12:00 pm
@hawkeye10,
Schengen countries are an area within the EU (22) and outside as well (4. [Additionally Andorra and San Marino don't have border as well, they are no EU and no Schengen country]), without internal borders. Border controls can and have been set up at various times before e.g. usually at international football matches, or crime related.
(Under the Schengen rules , signatories may re-instate internal border controls for 10 days, if this is necessary for "public policy or national security" reasons. If the problem continues, the controls can be maintained for "renewable periods" of up to 20 days and for a maximum of two months.)
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 12:03 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
The EU is going to have to find a way to be OK with internal border controls for years.

Sorry.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 12:12 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
17:53: German Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere says the country has beefed up border controls with France after the Paris attacks. De Maiziere said the move follows a request from France to all of its neighbors to increase controls along their common borders.
17:28: Belgian Justice Minister Koen Geens says several people have been arrested in the Belgian capital, Brussels, in connection with the Paris terrorist attacks. Minister Koen Geens told the VRT network the arrests came after a rental car with Belgian license plates was seen close to the Bataclan theater. Police organized several raids in the St. Jans Molenbeek neighborhood on Saturday.

http://www.dw.com/en/paris-attacks-live-updates/a-18849192

You can see the French security people get it. The anti border dreamer EU politicians are going to get told to go **** themselves. The fact that the #1 thing Europeans like about the EU is the lack of borders are similarly going to get brushed off.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 12:13 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:


He makes an excellent point but it seems to be secondary to his primary point: Islamists are Un-Islamic

Obviously there are numerous people who would disagree with him, but I don't think it really matter whether or not Islamism is entirely consistent with Islam as it was originally established or if since it's origins a more enlightened version arose that spread throughout the Islamic world. The important point is that there is an Islamic alternative to Islamism.

I think that he and others may be wasting their time making arguments that distinguish Islamism from their version of Islam. It may be necessary to convert people who sympathize with Islamists, but articles like this one aren't going to do much to convert non-Muslims from a fearful or even hateful view of Islam. It doesn't really matter if Islamism is inconsistent with Islam, if Islamists continue to slaughter people (Non-Muslims and Muslims alike) in the name of Allah and the followers of the true or alternative Islam are not perceived to be sufficiently condemning them or, better yet, joining in the fight against them.

There will, no doubt, be some in this forum who will join in and tell us how non-Islamist Muslims are condemning the Islamists and actually fighting them. Clearly the Kurds are full throttle, but then the Kurds have always been a distinct part of the Ummah. Obviously there are some Iraqis fighting ISIS, but they are soldiers compelled to by their government and there is plenty of evidence that their commitment to the fight has been less than 100% (whether due to cowardice or religious conviction) The Arab nations that initially joined the "coalition" never did much and have withdrawn to a great extent.

The simple fact of the matter is that we don't see a Muslim force (either from one or several Muslim nations) in a committed effort to destroy ISIS. This may be due to the fact that they prefer to sit back and allow the US to spend it's treasure on a half-hearted fight, but we are unlikely to ever know if in our absence, the people of Islam ( of whom Mr. Ahmed refers) would seriously take on the Islamists, and frankly, there's not enough evidence to suggest they would to justify us leaving them to it.

I've no doubt that there are many Muslims like Mr. Ahmed who abhor and condemn the Islamists, but again it is a simple fact that if you polled Westerners as to whether Muslims were sufficiently speaking out and acting against Islamists the majority would respond they are not. Is this a faulty perception somehow infused in people by neo-cons? Obviously I would say that's nonsense but we may have a few people in this forum who think it's the case.

And if you don't like hypothetical polls you need only look to actual ones like the al-Jazeera poll that indicates 81% of Arabs support ISIS. Or the Populus survey in the UK that showed close to 80% of London Muslims indicate some degree of support for ISIS. Or the Clarion Project poll that indicated over 8 million Muslims have a positive view of ISIS and 42 million support them to some extent. Now throw in all the polls we've seen about support for Osama bin Laden among Muslim nations when he was alive and you don't get a picture that Islamists are a universally loathed extremist group within the broader Islamic world.

Yes, there are over one billion Muslims on the planet and so even numbers like these represent a fraction of the total base, but I'm not arguing that the majority of Muslims support the Islamists, I am arguing that the majority who do not are neither vocal enough or seen to be taking any action against them and this leads to most important point Mr. Ahmed makes in the linked article:

Quote:
This is the moment for the Islamic world to expose Islamism — but loosening its hold upon our faith falls upon those Muslims who value pluralism and pursue a civilised, enlightened Islam. The reformation many are calling for isn’t needed of Islam, but rather of Muslims — and specifically of Muslim leadership.

So we must name the beast, and do so with conviction. This is not just about weeding out a jihadi menace from Birmingham schools, but about giving millions of Muslims the chance for a peaceful coexistence with the rest of humanity. And it’s about persuading non-Muslims that the Islamists are wrong — that such coexistence is possible.

From the Pakistani badlands to the banlieues of Paris, notice must be served to the Islamists: Muslims — that is to say, real Muslims — are coming for you.


The author makes a passionate and compelling argument for why Islamism is not Islam, but he, obviously, realizes making such an argument is not enough. If this Muslim doesn't think his fellow Muslims are doing enough to combat Islamists who are the non-Muslims to disagree with him?

Until what the author is calling for happens and in a way that is perceptible to the West, Westerners will increasingly believe that their war is not against Islamists, but Islam. Political leaders like President Obama can turn blue telling us we are not at war with Islam, but with attacks like last night escalating in their scope and carnage, and continued inaction coming from the Islamic world, such words increasingly seem hollow.

I've no doubt that there will be numerous statements made by Muslim leaders condemning violence and regretting the loss of innocent lives, but how many of them will go as far as Mr Ahmed did in this article? I won't hold my breath waiting.
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 12:42 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I've no doubt that there will be numerous statements made by Muslim leaders condemning violence and regretting the loss of innocent lives, but how many of them will go as far as Mr Ahmed did in this article? I won't hold my breath waiting.
That has already been so - from yesterday night onwards. But more important are the demonstrations by Muslims all over Europe tonight.

Not fogetting that quite a lot of Muslims are among the deaths, a Muslim security guard discovered an attacker wearing an explosives vest before he could enter the stadium (police suspect the attacker aimed to detonate his vest inside the stadium in order to provoke a deadly stampede).
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 12:47 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
European leaders now agree that the Schengen open border area within the European Union does not work, junior Dutch justice minister Klaas Dijkhoff is quoted as saying on Monday evening. According to the Telegraaf, Dijkhoff said the future of the Schengen agreement will be on the agenda at the next European summit in December. The minister was speaking in Brussels ahead of this week’s EU summit with a number of African states on Malta. In addition, the Dublin agreement which states refugees should remain in the first safe country they reach – such as Greece and Italy – also needs overhauling, Dijkhoff said.

Read more at DutchNews.nl: Schengen open border agreement needs an overhaul: Dutch minister http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2015/11/schengen-open-border-agreement-needs-an-overhaul-dutch-minister/


And this was before Paris. Get with it Walter, your beloved Schengen is going away at least partly and at least for awhile. The cost of not doing it is chaos and the election of far right wingers all across Europe.

Pick your poison, and pick well.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 12:57 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
That was his point, that they are inimical to Islam.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 01:06 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
...cells are setting up where they think security is the worst


Absolutely which is why I suspect the French people are eventually going to look to the government for an explanation as to how this attack, on the heels two recent ones, was allowed to happen.

Quote:
The EU also is finding the lack of border controls inside the EU a problem with the "migrants" are moving from country to country untracked.


And herein lies a major rub. Syria is a horrific mess with hundreds of thousands of Syrians killed by either their government or ISIS. It's no wonder that thousands upon thousands of people are fleeing that nation, and it's no wonder that there is a great deal of sympathy for them and a desire to provide a humanitarian response, but it is insane to ignore the dangers the situation presents.

One only has to read news reports concerning the behavior of certain refugees to know that they are not people who are running for their lives and looking for any port in a storm. The anecdotal evidence of refugees making demands of European nations that go beyond simply asylum and indicate some sense of entitlement, may not be indicative of the entire group, but they are prevalent enough to suggest that there is more going on than an escape to safety. One story in particular told of a family that had been moved to a semi-rural community in Germany and the wife was complaining that it was too boring; that they wanted to be relocated to Hamburg. If you are living in daily fear of your life and the lives of your children, do you worry about how exciting your new, secure home might be?

Undoubtedly many, if not most, of these refugees have fled for their lives, but it's clear, as well, that their numbers include a great many Arabs (some of whom, I feel certain, are not even Syrians) who are taking advantage of this crisis to relocate to a cushier life in Europe.

And if the numbers include would-be freeloaders they also include terrorists. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.

For the most part, it's Europe's problem and if they want to bungle it by opening their doors to freeloaders and terrorists in the name of humanitarianism, that's their choice, but once terrorists find there way to Europe it becomes a lot easier for them to find their way to America, so it's something our government needs to watch with concern.

As these people continue to flood into Europe they are putting European towns and communities under great stress. With big hearts many of the Europeans are welcoming them as best they can, but I heard a moving account on NPR from a Greek woman in a small village that had been flooded with so many refugees that she needed to volunteer to help them bury their dead. In the immediate face of human suffering people will usually respond with open hearts, providing they do not feel completely overwhelmed.

As the crisis continues and matures, some towns will feel overwhelmed and their national governments will be slow to come to their aid. We will then likely see stories of ugly "nationalistic" sentiments and actions that ignore the fact that the overwhelmed townspeople originally welcomed the refugees with open arms. There are few topics the media like better to cover than "ugly nationalism."

So too, it will become evident that the influx of people is taxing the national and local resources of their new homes and that some, if not all, have come for the express purpose of sponging off of those resources and will demand cultural accommodations, like a women only day at the public pool, restrictions on alcohol consumption or sales, and exemption from any expression of fealty to the land that took them in during their time of need. The charitable sentiments expressed at the outset will likely turn to resentment and anger.

Finally it will eventually be discovered that terrorists behind a new bloody attack were among the refugees allowed into the country.

Europeans have a breaking point and they don't all live in the cosmopolitan centers of their nations (places which, ironically, will always be the prime targets of the terrorist attacks). They have a reason and right to be proud of their heritage and it's not jingoistic xenophobia to want to preserve that heritage. The problem with Muslim immigrants in Europe is that to a great extent, they do not want to assimilate, they want to colonize, and they have found a new home that has, for decades now, been quite willing to accommodate them at the expense of the culture and traditions of their native populations. I'm amazed it's continued this way for this long, but I can't see it continuing for much longer. The Paris attack will be a game changer the way 9/11 was. Former multi-culturalists like Hollande will change their positions either because of an internal transformation or because of political pressure. The right-wing that has been on the rise in Europe will get a shot in the arm as anti-immigrant sentiment swells.

If my prediction comes true (and obviously it may not) it will be ironic that the people who most fear the right-wing in Europe will have paved the way for their ascension through policies that were as far to the left as the counter-reaction will be to the right. Political changes brought on by a crisis are rarely moderate in nature. For years many of us have watched PC muti-culturalism run amok in Europe and wondered how can people put up with this stuff? I think we will be finding out soon.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 01:09 pm
Quote:
More and more, there is the tendency to lump all Muslims together as would-be jihadists who secretly cheer on Isis and the terrorists, people ready to don suicide vests themselves at the first chance.

In would be marvalous indeed if the Muslim community in France and its leaders could somehow take more of the lead in dealing with the Islamic radicals within their own ranks, speak out even more forcefully against them, condemn the more radical schools and Imams, Indeed, the great majority of French Muslims have rejected radical Islam for years.

But the more Islamophobia spreads, the more the French government cracks down, the more ISIS and other radical Muslim groups will achieve their goal. That is, to convince French Muslims that there is no way moderation will work in France, no way they will ever be accepted as full citizens in this country. The only solution is radical Islam, jihad, the way of al-Qaeda and Isis.

If that happens, than the current Islamic "Fifth column" in France could morph from a few hundred or thousand young radicals, to a much more terrifying threat.

The problem is that, at this time of national crisis, France lacks any great leader of vision and courage. There is no De Gaulle or Clemenceau in the wings. Only Francois Hollande.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barry-lando/francetotal-war_b_8564072.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

Not only are the French leaders weak, but France is broke, the economy is broken, and they lack the ability to monitor all of the muslims that are considered to be dangerous. The EU bosses had been warned that once the Muslims were allowed in there is no going back, and it was always clear that managing all the resulting problems was going to be very difficult at best. Just as we saw on Wallstreet in the run up to that melt down the base cause of the problem is a failure to appreciate and manage risk. And by the time fantasists finally understand that a meltdown is in progress it is almost impossible to save the day.

Europeans need to get their head out of their asses and seal the borders, and also do anything they can to deal with the disintegration of the Middle East, though lets be honest. just about everything the West has done in the Middle East and Northern Africa over the last long while has been counter productive. Expertise is sorely lacking. But there is no choice but to try.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  4  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 01:15 pm
Another link -
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/14/paris-attack-restaurants-dinner-terrorism-violence-war-happiness

a clip from it -
“This is a war on happiness. People were just outside, living their lives, not thinking about anything,” Benjamin Romain, a regular drinker at the bar, said. On Friday evening, Romain had been watching the football in the Stade de France with his brother and 12-year-old nephew. He heard the explosions, three of them, and initially assumed they were firecrackers.

He and the other spectators then filed out of the stadium, their hands above their heads, in front of nervous police officers armed with guns. “My nephew had never seen anything like it,” he said. There was no information; he and thousands of others were glued to their cellphones for news. That’s how he found that Le Carillon, his favourite bar-hotel, had been caught up in the carnage.

In a city as multicultural as Paris, it was inevitable that some of those targeted would be Muslims. The bar’s owner, Romain said, is a gregarious Algerian who had lived in the city for 40 years, Amokrane Coco. He survived. But 14 of his customers were gunned down, mostly young people in an area known for its hipster clientele.

Romain said he’d celebrated his girlfriend Nanou’s 28th birthday at the bar just two weeks ago. Coco, aged 72, was famously laid back and had allowed her to hang up party balloons inside. Guests brought in food from the restaurant next door, Le Petit Cambodge, which was also targeted. “This place is popular. It’s the cheapest,” he said, adding that a litre of Belgium beer cost a mere €3.

What did he think of the killers? “They are not Muslims. They are terrorists. The kids I grew up with weren’t like that.” Romain said he’d originally come from the gritty northern suburbs of Paris, home to a predominantly immigrant population and the scene of anti-government riots in 2005. He had arrived at the bar bearing a small olive tree. “It’s a symbol of hope, of peace,” he said.
end/clip


The article is worth a read otherwise as well.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 01:22 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
This is a war on happiness.


OMG.... The epitome of liberal clap-trap.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 01:33 pm
How many French wish they had DSK running the show right now?
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 02:09 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The point is this: Welcoming is an opening gesture, a start. In the long run, refugee support for, not to mention the successful integration of, more than a million people would be impossible. Municipalities could probably deal with the logistic and bureaucratic burden, but the apprehensive, despondent, gut of German society does not want any social experiments. The government should not give them anything to latch onto, any excuse to come together and trumpet anti-foreigner sentiments throughout the land. It is better to take care of those who are already here well, than to treat more poorly.
One thing is certain: Refugee policy will make or break Merkel's chancellorship. Currently, she is poised between Nobel Peace Prize and ignominious resignation. Between beatification and disgrace. The latter would not only be bad for her and for Germany's image abroad. It would also be a mid-sized social catastrophe at home if we were to allow our hearts to race ahead of our heads. The trademark of our community is consensus. It should not be overstrained. Angela Merkel has to find a way to correct her own policies, otherwise someone else will. Someone, like Wolfgang Schäuble.

http://www.dw.com/en/opinion-refugee-policy-get-hold-of-your-heart-and-use-your-head/a-18846826

Break.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 02:29 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I've no doubt that there will be numerous statements made by Muslim leaders condemning violence and regretting the loss of innocent lives, but how many of them will go as far as Mr Ahmed did in this article? I won't hold my breath waiting.
That has already been so - from yesterday night onwards. But more important are the demonstrations by Muslims all over Europe tonight.

Not fogetting that quite a lot of Muslims are among the deaths, a Muslim security guard discovered an attacker wearing an explosives vest before he could enter the stadium (police suspect the attacker aimed to detonate his vest inside the stadium in order to provoke a deadly stampede).


Mass demonstrations by Muslims throughout Europe is a very welcome development. Perhaps this was a final straw for the silent majority.

Islamists are not squeamish about killing other Muslims. ISIS does it on a daily basis which is one of the reasons why any sense of loyalty among the faithful that heretofore may have prevented "moderate' Muslims from condemning Islamists is perverse.

Of course, there is absolutely no reason to believe Muslims in Paris who may have been killed were specifically targeted, just that the attackers didn't really care if they killed fellow Muslims during their effort to kill and terrorize Westerners.

I'm not sure why you or others feel the need to point out that Muslims are often killed in these attacks against the West, but it occurs with great frequency.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 02:32 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:

Mass demonstrations by Muslims throughout Europe is a very welcome development.


It is required if they are to stay successfully.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 02:45 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I'm not sure why you or others feel the need to point out that Muslims are often killed in these attacks against the West, but it occurs with great frequency.
And I'm not sure why you and others generalise Muslims.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 02:47 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I'm not sure why you or others feel the need to point out that Muslims are often killed in these attacks against the West, but it occurs with great frequency.
And I'm not sure why you and others generalise Muslims.


With all of your education, and with all of the history between Europe and Islam.....between Islam and anyone not Islam, you dont understand?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 02:50 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quoting Finn,
I'm not sure why you or others feel the need to point out that Muslims are often killed in these attacks against the West, but it occurs with great frequency.

But we have a complement of blowhards who think being Muslim is being a baddie. It is important to be clear that is off base by a mile wide. Or, a world wide.
 

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