32
   

Attacks in Paris Stadium, concert hall

 
 
izzythepush
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 04:45 am
@puzzledperson,
puzzledperson wrote:
The "golden rule" isn't "He who has the gold makes the rules", it's "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". If everyone followed this simple moral precept, regardless of their religion, would the world be different? Better, or worse?


Why does that only apply to Moslems. Why is it OK for America to carry out illegal invasions, kill women and children finance ethic cleansing in Palestine, overthrow democracies and prop up dictators? Why are you only upset when they stop turning the other cheek?

You really are the worst form of hypocrite. I think it's a miracle radical Islam is still such a tiny percentage of Islam as a whole. The crap you write seems specifically designed to turn moderates into jihadis.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 04:49 am
@layman,
Yes, it's hard to rewrite history. Yet Saddam was keeping a lid on the cauldron...

0 Replies
 
layman
 
  3  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 05:19 am
@izzythepush,

Quote:
You really are the worst form of hypocrite.


He's on your side, Dizzy, ya fool.
puzzledperson
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 05:28 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote: " The Muslims of today are reacting to an unprovoked and horrendous attack that was perpetrated by Muslims. In other words, in your comparison to Pearl Harbor, the Muslims should be playing the role of WWII Japanese. America's reaction "bomb them to the stone age" is entirely rational and moral, both in the case of WWII and in the case of today's dronestrikes."

The Japanese didn't attack Pearl Harbor (which in any case was a purely military target); the Japanese military government attacked Pearl Harbor. So how were popular calls to bomb the Japs back to the Stone Age reasonable or moral?

As for what the Muslims are reacting to (and by "Muslims of today" you presumably refer to groups like al Qaeda which the majority of Muslims regard as impious murderers), consider what Osama bin Laden cited in his 1996 "Declaration of Jihad Against the Americans":

"More than six hundred thousand Iraqi children have died due to lack of food and medicine as a result of your unjustifiable and aggressive sanctions imposed on Iraq. and its nation. Iraqi children are our children. You (America), together with the Saudi regime are responsible for the shedding of the blood of these innocent children."

UNICEF seems to agree about the numbers and cause:

"Ms. Bellamy noted that if the substantial reduction in child mortality throughout Iraq during the 1980s had continued through the 1990s, there would have been half a million fewer deaths of children under-five in the country as a whole during the eight year period 1991 to 1998. As a partial explanation, she pointed to a March statement of the Security Council Panel on Humanitarian Issues which states: "Even if not all suffering in Iraq can be imputed to external factors, especially sanctions, the Iraqi people would not be undergoing such deprivations in the absence of the prolonged measures imposed by the Security Council and the effects of war." "

http://www.unicef.org/newsline/99pr29.htm

Now of course, to this it should be added that two wrongs don't make a right, that you can't do good by doing evil, that there are several important distinctions between sanctions targeting the regime of Saddam Hussein and the actions of (for example) the 9/11 attackers. One might also question the sincerity of this concern as expressed by bin Laden.

But there are several important observations to be had from all this.

First, blanket references to the sins of "Muslims" are just as morally undiscriminating as references to the sins of "Americans".

Second, the willingness to blithely dismiss the deaths of civilians as acceptable "collateral damage" of military operations (that are largely cosmetic anyway) is disturbingly similar to the arguments used by terrorists in attacking civilians as military targets as the Paris attackers did (much like the British in the Second World War in their use of terror bombing to undermine German morale). Bombs are bombs, and dead civilians are just as dead either way.

Third, at some point it becomes more important to break the cycle of violence than to argue about who started it. I would hate to have to argue against Native American terrorists attempting to regain their land and arguing that Europeans started it.

Terrorist incidents have skyrocketed since the so-called war on terror was declared and since the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Now you and others like you are talking about invading Syria, and Iraq again too.

As long as U.S. military actions are seen through the prism of geopolitics or war game strategies, and as long as all those civilian casualties are written off as statistics on a collateral damage chart, I don't see how this is possible. Somebody has to break the cycle of violence by being BETTER than the other side. If the United States can't see its way to being better for moral reasons, it might at least do so for practical reasons.

But I'm afraid that the habit of demonizing entire peoples in response to the actions of their governments or of groups unilaterally claiming to act for them, is not a habit of Muslims alone. We often speak of the Judeo-Christian tradition, though it's difficult to imagine Jesus approving of the callously inflicted deaths of innocents carried out in the name of a civilization representing this tradition. One also wonders whether those who bombed the King David Hotel that killed 91 were acting within this tradition. Among the psalms popularly attributed to King David, there is one that shocks the modern reader:

"...happy the one who repays you as you have served us! Happy the one who dashes your little ones against the rocks."

Perhaps it is time to try something truly radical now that militarism has failed yet again: follow the Golden Rule and treat the noncombatant inhabitants of foreign cities as we would be treated. Stop trying to minimize, justify, and euphemise reflexive military responses that are known in advance will kill many civilians and are not even effective in accomplishing strategic goals. Stop invading other countries, treating their citizens like potential terrorists and little brown monkeys, then asking why anti-American attitudes are so prevalent among them.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 05:40 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
Why Fallujah? Why May..

The Americans' conduct over the Fallujah affair -- and their highly implausible version of events -- has compounded the anger in Iraq over the killings, in which 13 people died after being hit by a hail of US bullets outside a school which the troops were occupying. It combines all the worst elements of the occupation: panicky troops firing at Iraqis instead of seeking to engage with them or understand their circumstances, then insisting that local people have no cause for anger."


Quoting Phil Reeves, eh? Who, along with his homey, Robert Fisk, have to be the most anti-western commentators (I can't call them "journalists") on the planet. Reeves refers to Fallujah as "a conservative Sunni town 35 miles west of Baghdad."

"Conservative," eh? This is the town that had radical arabs from all over the middle east flooding into it to wage battle against US for many months. The "conservative" town that was giving aid, comfort, and support to Zarqawi while he was busy making videos of himself beheading western hostages in their town.

And the only reason those poor "conservative" townspeople would even think about "resisting" was because of an incident that happened a few days earlier.

I think this guy might have said it best, eh?

Quote:
"Having successfully introduced the novel legal concept of the "hate crime," progressive opinion has now taken it to dizzying new heights: the hate-me crime. Even as a mob is trying to kill him, [Fisk] absolves them of all responsibility. It's "entirely" America's fault. Noam Chomsky, eat your heart out....at a stroke, Mr. Fisk has dramatically raised the bar for standards of Western self-loathing,"


http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=95001602
puzzledperson
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 05:44 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote: "Why does that (the Golden Rule) only apply to Moslems."

It doesn't. Which was precisely my point.

izzythepush: " You really are the worst form of hypocrite."

Not at all. You're simply an amazingly dense gasbag that has COMPLETELY misconstrued both the tenor and the content of a transparently lucid argument.
izzythepush
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 05:56 am
@puzzledperson,
I've got your number, you're another Vikorr, trying to appear reasonable while blaming all Moslems, (even the peaceful majority,) for IS' atrocities all the time giving the West a free pass. It's double standards and it helps the Islamists' cause. You don't want Moslems to live in security, freedom and democracy, you want them to behave.
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 05:57 am
@layman,
The only person being fooled is you, but that's not exactly difficult.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 06:03 am
@layman,
I wonder if Fisky-boy wants some cheese with his whine, eh?

Quote:
"Many now demand my death. And last week, the Hollywood actor John Malkovich did just that, telling the Cambridge Union that he would like to shoot me."

"Malkovich was not questioned by the police!!! He might, I suppose, be refused any further visas to Britain until he explains or apologises for his vile remarks. But the damage has been done"

“Only days after Malkovich announced that he wanted to shoot me, a website claimed that the actor's words were "a brazen attempt at queue-jumping". The site contained an animation of my own face being violently punched by a fist and a caption which said: "I understand why they're beating the **** out of me."


Po boy.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 06:09 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
You don't want Moslems to live in security, freedom and democracy, you want them to behave.


Yeah, Dizzy don't want them to behave, eh? He wants to see them cutting some western throats. Hey, Dizzy, why don't you and Robert Fisk go volunteer to be their next victims, eh? Don't forget to bring your camera. Oh, yeah, and don't forget to recruit Phil Reeves to join you in this glorious journey into martyrdom, kay?
0 Replies
 
puzzledperson
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 06:27 am
@layman,
What's "anti-American" about referring to Fallujah as conservative? Or is this more of your cheeky irony? In any case it's a perfectly accurate description, sociologically speaking. Conservative as in hidebound to tradition and prudishly old-fashioned.

Human Rights Watch investigated the Fallujah massacre, as did many others. Their report is noteworthy for its depth and balance.

https://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraqfalluja/

I'm not anti-American; I am an American. I have no self-loathing, nor do I romanticize or idealize third world peoples or primitive cultures of history (be they sub-saharan African, Incan or Aztec). Why is it anti-American to apply consistent standards, to expose lies and hypocrisy undertaken in the name of patriotism, or to offer pragmatism as an alternative to failed strategies?

The idea that anyone criticizing U.S. policy or actions is anti-American is both naive and a cheap form of ad hominem. It's also an American tradition; though to be fair and balanced, so is muckraking journalism.

layman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 06:35 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
The idea that anyone criticizing U.S. policy or actions is anti-American is both naive and a cheap form of ad hominem.


Indeed it is. Few people would ever get the notion that "anyone" (i.e., everyone) criticizing the US is anti-American.

That appellation is generally reserved for anti-americans only. Kinda like "intellectual pacifists," ya know?

Quote:
"The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point.....

"But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other...

"but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States." (George Orwell, 1945).

puzzledperson
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 06:42 am
@izzythepush,
Preposterous. Nowhere in my comments did I blame all Muslims (or Muslims in general, or a majority or even a substantial minority) for IS crimes. Quite the contrary, and note that I said the majority of Muslims regard al Qaeda (and by extension IS) as impious murderers. Far from "all the time giving the west a pass" I devoted the bulk of my criticisms to western military policies, because the sins of Muslim radicals are made clear to western audiences on a daily basis by their media, and there is no reason for me to add one more voice "preaching to the choir" for air strikes and invasions.

But of course, all this is obvious, so I have to assume that you are deliberately libeling me for some ulterior purpose. Now I'll put you on "ignore" and report you to the website administrators.

.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 06:50 am
@puzzledperson,
You're forgetting that this is not the only thread you post on. Your anti Palestinian bias is clear. You're very good at hand wringing and spreading blame, not so good when it comes to finding just democratic solutions.

When American Moslems are allowed to make programmes like this you'll have turned a corner. Until then you'll keep demonising a whole section of society and repeating the mistakes that got us into this mess in the first place.

puzzledperson
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 06:52 am
@layman,
I'm not a pacifist. Nor an admirer of totalitarianism whether Left or Right. More ad hominem.
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 06:53 am
@puzzledperson,
puzzledperson wrote:
Now I'll put you on "ignore" and report you to the website administrators.


I'm bricking it.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 06:54 am
@izzythepush,
I guess that's what passes for humor in Limeyville, eh?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 06:55 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
But of course, all this is obvious, so I have to assume that you are deliberately libeling me for some ulterior purpose. Now I'll put you on "ignore" and report you to the website administrators.

Izzy is just increadibly dense, that's all. And once he started a fight, he is incapable of de-escalating it. Ignoring him is the smart thing to do.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 06:55 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
I'm not...More ad hominem.


Who said anything about you?
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 07:02 am
@puzzledperson,
Ignore is best for that person. Once you muffle his incessant, illogical noise, no one else is nearly as bad. May as well not waste time complaining. Admins don't chase people around for bad behavior. No matter how ridiculous.
 

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