33
   

The Case For Biden

 
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Fri 11 Sep, 2015 10:25 am
@snood,
What's a realistic endpoint for declaring a candidacy?
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Fri 11 Sep, 2015 10:36 am
@snood,
snood wrote:

I'm being very honest when I said my views are evolving. Last night I saw Biden on Colbert's show, and I remembered what it was that draws me to the man; why Obama trusts him; why I believe that at his core he is a decent man who has good motives. I want someone who represents a majority of my positions on issues, but who can be an effective, forceful leader and coalition builder. I see some aspects of those things in all three candidates in question - Clinton, Sanders and Biden (not a candidate yet). I'll probably be weighing things out for a awhile yet. Why is it so important to be "for" someone until at least after the debates?

Frankly I think that any other position in the present circumstances, (barring the probably remote possibility of a long-standing preference for a certain individual candidate), would be a bit illogical in the present circumstances for just about anyone. (You could look beyond the three shop worn Democrats you listed.) There is a wide, and possibly still changing, array of cvandidates. The country appears to be seriously divided on a number of important issues. The international and internal economic conditions facing the country are serious and complex. Unresolved political and social issues appear, in some cases, to be getting worse. The government has grown much larger, more intrusive and much more expensive, while our public debt has reached truly dangerous levels. That's a prety high level of challenges and contradictions, and I believe it influences the remarkably unsettled and turbulent scene before us now.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  3  
Fri 11 Sep, 2015 11:01 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

What's a realistic endpoint for declaring a candidacy?

For anyone but Biden, I'd say the window is closed already. Biden could maybe pull it off if he got in before the first debate in October - simply because he doesn't have to clear the hurdle of name recognition, and because he has some connections that would allow him to raise money fast.
RABEL222
 
  3  
Fri 11 Sep, 2015 10:49 pm
@snood,
Your right Snood. When this started the Hillery haters screamed that the liberals were trying to appoint her, but now all of a sudden the Hillery haters are trying to appoint Bernie and insisting that Hillery step down before a vote has been taken. I am waiting for the nominating process and will vote for the one I think will do the best job. I will not be stampeded by republicans or Hillery haters and I will make up my own mind.
engineer
 
  3  
Fri 11 Sep, 2015 10:51 pm
@snood,
Unfortunately for him if he did want to run, all his connections are Clinton's connections and they've already told him they are with her.
snood
 
  2  
Fri 11 Sep, 2015 10:52 pm
@RABEL222,
It's really interesting right now. The day after the next GOP debate, Biden is planning a cross country speaking tour. I'm sure the timing of these things and his sudden appearance all over TV land isn't coincidence, but I'm not sure what it is.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  2  
Fri 11 Sep, 2015 10:54 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

Unfortunately for him if he did want to run, all his connections are Clinton's connections and they've already told him they are with her.

Not all. The simple fact is, cocksure proclamations notwithstanding, no one will know whether he's running or not until he gives a definitive no or yes.
Lash
 
  -1  
Fri 11 Sep, 2015 11:00 pm
@engineer,
I feel confident that many current Clinton supporters would be happy to have an alternative.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Fri 11 Sep, 2015 11:06 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:

engineer wrote:

Unfortunately for him if he did want to run, all his connections are Clinton's connections and they've already told him they are with her.

Not all. The simple fact is, cocksure proclamations notwithstanding, no one will know whether he's running or not until he gives a definitive no or yes.


Biden is a good politician, he could just as well be begging off as part of playing the reluctant warrior as he could be actually begging off. This assumption that Biden is telling the truth is all because he can sell what he is saying with emotion. Actors do that too.

We shall see. I think most likely he is shaking the D tree for money, he has seen no where near enough promises for funds ( an he would need a ton fast) and he is saying to the establishment "Oh, you want me to save the Party from Clintion? SHOW ME THE MONEY!".

The fact that so many assume that he is telling the Truth goes to show his political skills.
snood
 
  4  
Sat 12 Sep, 2015 05:07 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

snood wrote:

engineer wrote:

Unfortunately for him if he did want to run, all his connections are Clinton's connections and they've already told him they are with her.

Not all. The simple fact is, cocksure proclamations notwithstanding, no one will know whether he's running or not until he gives a definitive no or yes.


Biden is a good politician, he could just as well be begging off as part of playing the reluctant warrior as he could be actually begging off. This assumption that Biden is telling the truth is all because he can sell what he is saying with emotion. Actors do that too.


We shall see. I think most likely he is shaking the D tree for money, he has seen no where near enough promises for funds ( an he would need a ton fast) and he is saying to the establishment "Oh, you want me to save the Party from Clintion? SHOW ME THE MONEY!".

The fact that so many assume that he is telling the Truth goes to show his political skills.

Oh, getting snookered by a good salesman. Is that sort of like... you buying that Donald Trump wants to be president?
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Sat 12 Sep, 2015 10:20 am
@snood,
I think it's likely that all the elements discussed above (some reluctance on Biden's part; buying time; putting pressure on the party establishment and donors) are true -- we just don't know the relative importance or intensity of each. Biden and all others involved face a dymamic situation involving many players, and, whatever may be their priorities, they need to get the next moves right
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -3  
Sat 12 Sep, 2015 10:22 am
@snood,
Quote:
you buying that Donald Trump wants to be president?

I have said at least once that I am not convinced that he wants to win, though he says that he does. Thing is I have not heard a different convincing reason he is sinking so much time and treasure into running. He could have stroked his ego with much less work.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Sat 12 Sep, 2015 11:25 am
Biden seems to be a decent guy, and there are a number of reasons to believe he actually is, but he's still a major league politician.

I don't for a second doubt the sincerity of his grief over the death of his son, and I'm sure it's playing a role in his decision making, but for major league politicians the line between the "real world" and the feelings it produces in them, and the world of their political ambitions is very blurred. Major league ballplayers have to have extraordinary reflexes and politicians who play in the Bigs have to have an extraordinary capacity for rationalizing.

A great many of them enter politics because they believe in certain noble causes and/or with the certainty that they are not going accept the devil's deal of trading their principles for achievement, or selling their influence for the money needed to remain in office. Any politician who makes it to the majors (and certainly Biden is one of them) eventually has to do all the things their young idealistic self swore they would not. There may be a few who are in a perpetual state of self-loathing for having succumbed, but I wouldn't bet on it. There may be some who rather easily threw away their principles and embraced the the dark side, and, of course, there are some who didn't have any principles to compromise when they first got in the game.

However, I feel pretty certain that the majority of the idealistic rookies who eventually make it to the political big leagues and it's equivalents of the play-offs have, perhaps quite unconsciously, developed an extraordinary ability to rationalize. They believe their website bios and their campaign flyers that tell of their long and tireless struggles for one cause or another; some constituency; some core principle; some lofty goal. More importantly, they believe that they are unique in terms of their ability to achieve these things and therefore it crucial that they obtain and/or maintain the power that will enable them to do so.

Once one gets past the first struggle with rationalizing bad behavior, it becomes pretty easy and if one does it for decades, it becomes second nature.

So, of course, Biden was devastated by his son's death and yes, he is still beset by grief, but I don't, at all, believe that it is beyond him to talk about it in public and express how it might keep him from entering the race, while at the same time not only working diligently behind the scenes to prepare for an entry, but having already made up his mind that he will run. Nothing he said to Colbert would constitute lying if I'm correct. I'm sure he does feel that he shouldn't run if he can't give it his all, but that doesn't mean he feels he can't, and it certainly doesn't preclude an eventual speech during which he announces to the country that he's all in.

Some may declare me a cynic (or worse Smile ) and others may agree with me, but also believe that Biden is the cynic, an unprincipled dirtball,however I think it's a bit more complicated than that.

Biden has played in the big leagues for a long time and so we can safely assume, without specific evidence, that he has on more than one occasion compromised his principles. His difficulties with plagiarism alone are evidence of a character that, to some extent, is flawed. Overall he's a decent guy and perhaps far less flawed than many of his fellow players, but there really is no reason to believe what he says about anything.

There are numerous signs that he intends to run and too many coincidences to think otherwise. Sure, even if he's not made up his mind he would have had to start the process rolling or never have been in a position to jump in once he did decide. Yes, he may not run, but if he doesn't I think it will be far more to do with a calculus of his chances of winning rather than lack of committed ambition (Although that is precisely the reason we will hear if he announces he's not running)

I think he's getting in, because I think Clinton is on a downward spiral and the further she drops the more the current obstacles to his entering are cleared away. At that point he comes to the mound as the Saver, savior of the Democrats chances to keep the White House, and honoring his deceased son's wishes that he lead the nation...and he'll believe it all.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Sat 12 Sep, 2015 03:54 pm
This could be like deja vu algebra - a Biden/Bernie ticket would be in direct proportion to the Gore/Lieberman ticket? If one cross multiplies, one can even see a Gore/Bernie ticket, or a Biden/Lieberman ticket.

roger
 
  2  
Sat 12 Sep, 2015 04:00 pm
@Foofie,
Pure speculation on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn he's a bit tired of being vice president. Actually, I imagine there are a number of strong personalities out there who wouldn't be the least bit interested in the second spot.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  2  
Mon 14 Sep, 2015 08:58 am
Biden secretly met with an Obama financial backer: report

Quote:
U.S. Vice President Joe Biden has secretly met with Robert Wolf, a former UBS executive and major fundraiser for President Barack Obama, Bloomberg reported on Monday, one of the strongest indications yet that he is seriously considering a 2016 presidential bid.

Biden has been evaluating whether to challenge former U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, the current front-runner for the nomination to represent the Democratic Party in the November 2016 presidential race.

Wolf told Bloomberg he was supporting Clinton but said he met with Biden for more than 90 minutes during the vice president's trip to New York City last week.

Wolf said Biden had not definitely said he would run for president and did not make a plea for his support. But the news marks the first confirmed meeting between Biden and a heavyweight fundraiser who has publicly backed Clinton.

Positive poll numbers have led Biden, a former senator who has twice before run for president, to consider joining the race to challenge Clinton, also a former senator and first lady.

But he has remained undeclared as he and his family are weighing whether they have the energy and commitment for a presidential race after the recent death of his son, Beau.

In an emotional interview with talk-show host Stephen Colbert, during the same New York trip, Biden, 72, said he was not in a place where he could say he could devote his full self to running for president again.

Wolf, who owns a financial consulting firm, previously served as chairman and chief executive officer of UBS's Americas division as well as president and chief operating officer of UBS Global Investment Bank, both units of UBS Group AG.



georgeob1
 
  -1  
Mon 14 Sep, 2015 09:18 am
@revelette2,
Very interesting. Hard to know Biden's real intentions here. His expressed reservations about the run, though a contrary to his strenuous efforts to get the nomination in previous elections, are believable in his current situation. However, one thing here is certain: the Democrat establishment and the administration are, as a minimum, vigorously working on contingency plans for the event Cilliary's decline continues as it has in gathering momentum. So far they don't appear to have many options.

Despite all their populist rhetoric, contemporary Democrats are basicaly authoritarian in both their policies and their own behavior. Authoritatian organizations and policies don't function very well in dynamic, changing situations, and we are all getting an interesting look at that process.
snood
 
  3  
Mon 14 Sep, 2015 09:35 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Very interesting. Hard to know Biden's real intentions here. His expressed reservations about the run, though a contrary to his strenuous efforts to get the nomination in previous elections, are believable in his current situation. However, one thing here is certain: the Democrat establishment and the administration are, as a minimum, vigorously working on contingency plans for the event Cilliary's decline continues as it has in gathering momentum. So far they don't appear to have many options.

Despite all their populist rhetoric, contemporary Democrats are basicaly authoritarian in both their policies and their own behavior. Authoritatian organizations and policies don't function very well in dynamic, changing situations, and we are all getting an interesting look at that process.

Your analysis of the Democratic outlook and psyche is interesting. I'm interested in what happens when you turn that illumination on the Republican collection of "options".
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Mon 14 Sep, 2015 09:55 am
@snood,
I'm not sure I see a point here. There's vigorous competition among a large field of Republican competitors, and interesting choices among them. It certainly doesn't suggest a great deal of central control as does that of the Democrats.

The Trump phenomenon is somewhat a thing apart - possibly a product of the general unease and frustration of our electorate with the current political situation and their impressions of the health of the country.
snood
 
  5  
Mon 14 Sep, 2015 10:08 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

I'm not sure I see a point here. There's vigorous competition among a large field of Republican competitors, and interesting choices among them. It certainly doesn't suggest a great deal of central control as does that of the Democrats.

The Trump phenomenon is somewhat a thing apart - possibly a product of the general unease and frustration of our electorate with the current political situation and their impressions of the health of the country.


My ( I thought obvious) point is that you point out the trouble and turmoil on one side, and speak of "interesting choices" on the other. I happen to be of the opinion that the Democratic choices are easily more solid and on a whole more attractive than the other side, and that there is trouble and turmoil aplenty to dissect there.
 

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