Charleston Church Massacre: Thug, Terrorism, Disturbed Loner?

@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

The truth is, the death penalty does not deter murder. Never has, never will, except in some isolated instances. But having no death penalty deters execution of the innocent.

Yes, and a "justice" system that functions as poorly as ours does should not be allowed to posses the final solution. Competence and fairness must be demonstrated before the government is allowed to kill citizens, and we are most certainly not there.

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@edgarblythe,

I haven't suggested it as a "deterrent." It's silly to execute people just to send a message in the same way that it's silly to put people in prison for life just to send a message. Executing Timothy McVeigh serves to end Timothy McVeigh. One terrible man, one terrible crime, one terrible end to his life, but it is an end, and his future possible crimes are not merely deterred, they are stopped. Including the possible future murders of innocents, which you seemingly continue to overlook. McVeigh himself said that he would have considered a war of attrition with the U.S. Government; given the chance, he wouldn't have stopped until EVERY U.S. Government employee had been murdered.*

*Michel, Lou; Herbeck, Dan (2002). American Terrorist: Timothy McVeigh & the Tragedy at Oklahoma City. HarperCollins. p. 371. ISBN 0-06-039407-2. p. 304

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@Banana Breath,

Quote:

Executing Timothy McVeigh serves to end Timothy McVeigh. One terrible man, one terrible crime, one terrible end to his life, but it is an end, and his future possible crimes are not merely deterred, they are stopped.

Did we make any attempt to learn from Timothy McVeigh? Are we now able to better prevent people like him from being created? What I would have liked to see is a reformed Timothy McVeigh trying to talk young lost people down from the ledge, telling them that killing is not the answer. A dead Timothy NcVeigh cant do that.

Retribution only, in response to when people have already gone bad, is a piss poor avenue to promoting a healthy civilization. In fact I would go further, it is barbaric and stupid. We can do better, but we need people with compassion and we need people with intelligence to make it happen. I am not hearing too many candidates here at A2K.

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@Banana Breath,

That sort of punishment opens the door to kill off innocent prisoners, while keeping them alive offers up the possibility their innocence will be recognized. As with Manson, the indisputably guilty are out of society forever when they cannot gain parole. It is just a revenge killing to execute a prisoner and it does not make the public any safer.

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@edgarblythe,

I pretty much think her point is that prisons should be made safer. Not pleasant, but safer from other inmates and abusive personnel. We simply have no business expecting bigger and meaner prisoners to be a part of punishment.

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@roger,

I haven't addressed that aspect of prison. But I am for reform. I was only referring to the death penalty.

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@hawkeye10,

There is no justice in life . Good people starve to death every day whilst the world throws away food . Many criminals are not caught . Young children die from preventable disease . You just want to sound noble and it isn't working .

I am not allowed to lock a dog up in solitary confinement but you want to do it to a person ? Charming .

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@Banana Breath,

I was responding to Hawkeye .

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@ossobuco,

The collective, which you call the state, kills people every day for economic reasons .

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@Ionus,

Quote:

There is no justice in life

I have seen a lot of justice, dont bother telling me that it does not exist. Justice/injustice is a lot like good/evil....we will always have both but if we work at it we can have more good than evil.

Quote:

You just want to sound noble and it isn't working .

I dont want to sound like anything, these topics are not about me, but I hope that I have learned a few things over my 50+ year so far of life. It is really sad how easy it is for you to mock calls for justice and attempts to be a good person. You seem like a broken and bitter man right now, why is that?

Quote:

I am not allowed to lock a dog up in solitary confinement but you want to do it to a person ? Charming .

I am not in favor of long term solitary confinement....a few weeks at most.

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@hawkeye10,

Justice is a random event therefore it doesn't exist . It is impossible to apply in many cases, and fails in many others . Random success is no measure .

People with a cause want to sound noble . It increases their respect in the community and thus their chances of genetic survival . If you haven't found the selfish motive then keep looking, you haven't found the real motive .

We have a society where the weak are locked up in their own homes and the criminals are free . THAT is the damage done by failing to administer justice when the criminals are caught . To treat criminals worse than it is legal to treat an animal whilst spending huge resources on them, whilst also saying to dying children we don't have enough resources to research this disease, sorry, is not justice .

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

I am not in favor of long term solitary confinement....a few weeks at most.

Ahh...only short term cruelty to humans that is illegal for animals...right .

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
I am not in favor of long term solitary confinement....a few weeks at most.
Ahh...only short term cruelty to humans that is illegal for animals...right .

You have to have somewhere to go to deal with prisoners....ya, shank a guy and you should go to solitary, to dissuade the practice. Attack a guard and go to solitary. I cant believe that I am having this argument with a military man, what is wrong with you?

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@hawkeye10,

If they kill they die . I have seen good men killed, why cant the bad die too ?

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

If they kill they die . I have seen good men killed, why cant the bad die too ?

Have you been a saint your whole life? I know I have not. And we all die Einstein.

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@hawkeye10,

I cant recall murdering anyone...and I think I am aware that we all die Einstein...going by the number of young men's funerals I have been to...the original purpose of prison was advertised at the time as the latest in reform . Now its a hardening of criminals in some areas and an easier life than they had on the outside for others . Why the variation in prison life if they all have the same purpose ?

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

izzythepush wrote:

It's pretty clear what you are.

A person with a Hawk Eye.

More of a bird brain actually.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

Did we make any attempt to learn from Timothy McVeigh? Are we now able to better prevent people like him from being created? What I would have liked to see is a reformed Timothy McVeigh trying to talk young lost people down from the ledge

Timothy McVeigh would have loved to tell you where to shove your wishes for him to be reformed. He made that clear, stated in interviews that given the chance, he wouldn't stop the killing until the entire US government was murdered. YOUR route has been tried, take a good look at 44 years experience with Charles Manson. Maybe you'd like to have him talk to YOUR children, I sure wouldn't want him talking to mine. Quite simply he has dedicated his life to inspiring others to kill human beings. If YOUR method worked, why has not even one left wing bleeding heart been able to get through to him and bring out his inner love over the course of 44 years in the most liberal state in the nation? Guess what, he doesn't have any. He never has, and he never will.

http://blog.chron.com/iconia/files/2014/11/Charles-Manson-2.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/CharlesManson2014.jpg

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@Banana Breath,

Quote:

If YOUR method worked,

I think my preferred method does work, I think that we turned prisons back to being almost exclusively places for punishment rather than places to attempt to reform and correct because the sadism of the American people would not be denied, not because it did not work.

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Charleston Church Massacre: Thug, Terrorism, Disturbed Loner?

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