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George Galloway Full of Crap When He Says Jews have no right to be in Palestine

 
 
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 05:11 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
if I had my druthers, I would have been born into an American Methodist family, since I find them very high on the American identity scale. 

Ok, so if Muslims were high on the American ID scale, you'd want to be born Muslim...

You don't get social status by imitating those with social status, Foofie. You're on a road to a sad and boring life...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 05:22 pm
@RABEL222,
Just saying something in jest some times makes a lot of sense.
Quote:
Sending Netanyahu and his accomplices to Mars is genius
is one of those.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  4  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 05:55 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
The other family came from the east to conquer all the land surrounding the house and even into North Africa, about 1400 hundred years ago. The timelines are different for each family's knowing the house and the neighborhood.


This is historically false. Genetic studies show that they are the same people. The Israeli ancestors living in the Middle East 1400 years ago were also the Palestinian ancestors living in the Middle East 1400 years ago.

Mythology is all fine and good, but factually Jews and Palestinians have the same ancestral claim to the land since they have the same ancestors.
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 06:25 pm
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

Olivier, I don't agree with you often but the idea of sending Netanyahu and his accomplices to Mars is genius. I think they would be happy to have their very own planet and no pals to bother them. Im sure they could find a passage in the Tora that would justify it.

LOL. I don't mean they should be forced to go to Mars but if they can't stand neighbours, I can't think of a better place... Looks like the whole planet is waiting for some talented desert people to make it bloom.

Of course, it'd have to be renamed, because 'Mars' refers to a pagan god, and that won't do.

Planet Zion?
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 06:41 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
The simplistic idea that "the Jews" have an ancestral homeland in Palestine is a part of Zionist ideology that's based on religious mythology.

Science and history say the West Bank is the ancient homeland of the Jews.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 06:41 pm
@Olivier5,
Now, that's a name they can 'live with.' LOL
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 06:42 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
Well flip my flapjacks, Blue. I could have sworn they were clustered about Jerusalem until about 1900+/- years ago.
The destruction of the temple in 70 CE changed things in a big way.

Correct.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 06:42 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
This is historically false. Genetic studies show that they are the same people. The Israeli ancestors living in the Middle East 1400 years ago were also the Palestinian ancestors living in the Middle East 1400 years ago.
Mythology is all fine and good, but factually Jews and Palestinians have the same ancestral claim to the land since they have the same ancestors.

They had shared ancestors in the Middle East, but not shared ancestors in the West Bank.

Only the Jews have a claim to a West Bank homeland. The Palestinians were from a neighboring kingdom.

That said, no one was trying to prevent the Palestinians from having their own country. Israel offered them the West Bank over and over and over again. The Palestinians just always refused to make peace.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 06:45 pm
@oralloy,
You wrote,
Quote:
Only the Jews have a claim to a West Bank homeland.


Based on what? Tell us in current international legal terms, not mythological mumbo jumbo without any proof of its existence.
neologist
 
  3  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 07:09 pm
@cicerone imposter,
oralloy wrote:
Only the Jews have a claim to a West Bank homeland.
cicerone imposter wrote:
Based on what? Tell us in current international legal terms, not mythological mumbo jumbo without any proof of its existence.
There is little doubt that natural Jews came from the historic nation of Israel. Whether they have a legitimate claim to repatriation is and has been a subject of bloody debate, particularly since the right has been clouded by nearly 2 millenia of absence. One thing that should not be forgotten, however, is the force provided by the spurious belief of nominal christians, without which the second exodus may never have occurred.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 07:28 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

neologist wrote:
It's certainly understandable that the Jews would hope to be restored to their anscestral homeland.
InfraBlue wrote:
The simplistic idea that "the Jews" have an ancestral homeland in Palestine is a part of Zionist ideology that's based on religious mythology. The Jewish religion began in Palestine, "the Jews" have origins in the various parts of the world where they live. The Ashkenazim, the Jews that came up with Zionism, are a European people.
Well flip my flapjacks, Blue. I could have sworn they were clustered about Jerusalem until about 1900+/- years ago.

The destruction of the temple in 70 CE changed things in a big way.

Don't flip your skirt too high. This is just more simplistic thinking. There was a minority of Jews living "clustered about Jerusalem," during that timeline. Most Jews lived outside of Palestine throughout the Roman Empire by the time of the destruction of the second temple. These Jews were mostly coverts from what is now Syria who helped spread their religion and language, Aramaic, throughout the Middle East. It was these Jews, for the most part, that spread the religion westward and then throughout Central and Eastern Europe.

There were no Ashkenazi Jews "clustered about Jerusalem" during your timeline.

maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 07:37 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
They had shared ancestors in the Middle East, but not shared ancestors in the West Bank.

Only the Jews have a claim to a West Bank homeland. The Palestinians were from a neighboring kingdom.


This is completely false. They have the same genes from the same ancestors who lived in what is now called Israel and the West Bank neither of which existed 1400 years ago. 1400 years ago the territory they are fighting over was part of the Byzantine Empire and was called Paelestina.

Today's Palestinians share a genetic ancestry with the Jews that they don't share with other Middle Eastern peoples.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 07:39 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
This is just more simplistic thinking. There was a minority of Jews living "clustered about Jerusalem," during that timeline.

Here's a bit of history for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maccabees
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 08:06 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
This is just more simplistic thinking. There was a minority of Jews living "clustered about Jerusalem," during that timeline.

Here's a bit of history for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maccabees

Your bit of history does not negate what I wrote.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 08:43 pm
@neologist,
Are you talking about the British mandate? That's not even relevant to the Zionists who used force and threats to the Palestinians to leave.

From Wiki. NOTE: I trust the Palestinian version.
Quote:
Initial positions and criticisms[edit]
In the first decades after the exodus two diametrically opposed schools of analysis could be distinguished. In the words of Erskine Childers:[1] "Israel claims that the Arabs left because they were ordered to, and deliberately incited into panic, by their own leaders who wanted the field cleared for the 1948 war," while "The Arabs charge that their people were evicted at bayonet-point and by panic deliberately incited by the Zionists."

Palestinian and Arab position[edit]
According to Glazer[2] "[t]he Arab view of history has maintained that the Palestinians did not leave their homes voluntarily [but] were expelled by Zionist aggression.... Sources sympathetic to the Arab viewpoint have seen in the events of 1948 the fulfilment of a long dreamed-of Zionist plan to rid Palestine of its Arab population, thus forcibly transforming Palestine into a Jewish state." Nur Masalha and Walid Khalidi points at the influence of thinking about "transfer" of the Arab population to other Arab countries, among Zionists in the years prior to the exodus. In 1961 Khalidi also said that the Zionists had military superiority and that Plan Dalet, the Zionists' military plan executed in April and May 1948, aimed at expelling the Palestinians.[3]


The following link is from the jewishvirtuallibrary, and they agree with my assessment.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/irgun.html

Quote:
Etzel rejected the “restraint” policy of the Haganah and carried out armed reprisals against Arabs, which were condemned by the Jewish Agency.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 08:45 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
This is completely false. They have the same genes from the same ancestors who lived in what is now called Israel and the West Bank neither of which existed 1400 years ago. 1400 years ago the territory they are fighting over was part of the Byzantine Empire and was called Paelestina.

Today's Palestinians share a genetic ancestry with the Jews that they don't share with other Middle Eastern peoples.


Well, they also share it with Syrians. Abraham D. Lavender, in his paper, DNA Origins and Current Consequences for Sephardi, Mizrahi, and Ashkenazi Males and Females: Latest Results from Medical, Genealogical-Familial, and National-Ethnic Research writes that "M. F. Hammer and others documented in 2000...Most of the Jewish male populations were in a "tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians."

That’s in regard to male Y-chromosome genealogy. In regard to female mitochondrial dna genealogy, Dr. Martin Richards of the Archaeogenetics Research Group at the University of Huddersfield published a paper in which he writes that four founder females responsible for 40 percent of Ashkenazi mitochondrial DNA were all of European origin, and that the majority of the remaining percentages could be traced to other European Lineages.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 08:58 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Are you talking about the British mandate? That's not even relevant to the Zionists who used force and threats to the Palestinians to leave.
Exodus 2 happened. Could it have happened without the support of deluded nominal christians? Maybe. But they sure helped.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 09:01 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
This is completely false. They have the same genes from the same ancestors who lived in what is now called Israel and the West Bank neither of which existed 1400 years ago. 1400 years ago the territory they are fighting over was part of the Byzantine Empire and was called Paelestina.

The Palestinians and Israelites had a shared ancestry during the Bronze Age, when they were part of the Canaanite culture.

After the collapse of the Bronze Age, the Canaanite culture broke apart into smaller Iron Age cultures, one of which was the Israelites.

By this time the Palestinians had become a separate population from the Israelites. As such, they would not have been part of the Israelite Kingdom, but would have been part of one of the Iron Age kingdoms neighboring the Israelites.

(I used to keep track of which of the neighboring kingdoms were descended from Canaanite culture, but no one else seemed interested in the truth so I stopped bothering, and I've now forgotten which was which.)


maxdancona wrote:
Today's Palestinians share a genetic ancestry with the Jews that they don't share with other Middle Eastern peoples.

As both groups were once part of the same Canaanite population in the Bronze Age, they do share a connection that is not shared by people who aren't descended from the Canaanites.

However, I'm not so sure that there aren't others who are descended from the Canaanites.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2014 09:10 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
This is just more simplistic thinking. There was a minority of Jews living "clustered about Jerusalem," during that timeline.

Here's a bit of history for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maccabees

Your bit of history does not negate what I wrote.

What you wrote minimized the significance of the Jewish homeland.

That bit of history negates any idea that the area was not significant.
0 Replies
 
buttflake
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2014 12:39 pm
Galloway is a Muslim. Has that been mentioned?
 

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