12
   

Is this really considered rape?

 
 
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2014 10:02 pm
Quote:

Sendrow says, she was in her room with a guy with whom she’d been hooking up for three months. They’d now decided — mutually, she thought — just to be friends. When he ended up falling asleep on her bed, she changed into pajamas and climbed in next to him. Soon, he was putting his arm around her and taking off her clothes. “I basically said, ‘No, I don’t want to have sex with you.’ And then he said, ‘Okay, that’s fine’ and stopped,” Sendrow told me. “And then he started again a few minutes later, taking off my panties, taking off his boxers. I just kind of laid there and didn’t do anything — I had already said no. I was just tired and wanted to go to bed. I let him finish. I pulled my panties back on and went to sleep.”


http://www.phillymag.com/articles/rape-happens-here-swarthmore-college-sexual-assaults/

I find it both ridiculous and troubling that this story is being called "rape", putting it at the same level as a violent forced sexual attack. It supports the narrative of "rape culture" at the cost of hiding the real issue. It is political screed over real information. This quote is actually part of an article which uses this as an example of the rape epidemic (a fact I find ironic).

I can easily imagine the gender roles being reversed here, where a man says he wants to just sleep and the woman starts removing her clothes.

Would it be rape then?

My point is not in favor of rape (although I understand the risk I am taking at daring to question the narrative here). I am not saying that rapes shouldn't be taken seriously and that the problem of rape shouldn't be addressed in all parts of society.

But there is a point where dogma can be pushed to nonsense. The fact that people can't even ask questions about rape without facing brutal personal attacks is part of the problem.
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Type: Question • Score: 12 • Views: 6,145 • Replies: 179

 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2014 11:05 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The fact that people can't even ask questions about rape without facing brutal personal attacks is part of the problem.


We cant talk amongst our self about what should be considered rape, or about what the responsibilities should be from both parties in sexual union. If you dont agree with the feminists then you are by their definition a " rape apologist", and you should be subject to scorn and retribution for your crime of hostility towards women.

George Will was making a bigger point though, that claiming sexual victim status is coveted. We see this constantly as hollywood stars and politicians trot out their sexual victim story either in the TV media or in a book, always claiming that they need to fight for all of the the victims(cause there are tons and tons of silent victims running around the feminists assure is in spite of the fact that they cant point out very many) . The victims and those who fight for them are the modern day heros. The sexual victim is the addict, expecting to be in for hugs and constant you poor thing's ....tons of affirmations and positive chatter. The whole scene is starting to look way too much like when the televangelists used to invite the sinners up on stage every sunday to see if GOD would save them. Of course God did, every single one. Then came the call for money. The call at the end of the rape victim show is for more oppression of men, and more power to the feminists.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 12:27 am
@hawkeye10,
What George Will does not understand about sexual assault

Quote:
Recently, Post columnist George F. Will wrote that the sexual assault epidemic on our campuses is being blown out of proportion, arguing that universities have been bogged down with burdensome regulation while nurturing a generation of students who aspire to “victimhood.” Will’s comments are out of touch and don’t comport with the experiences of victims who come forward there are very few of these, universities’ conduct or the very real and severe scope of the problem. so we are constantly told, just dont ask where the victims are

Will’s characterization of victimhood as a “coveted status that confers privileges” demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding of the repercussions that victims can face in reporting attacks alleged attacks TYVM, and what repercussions? for instance their conscience and their friends saying that the accusation is not justified maybe?. Did he speak to any survivors? If he had, he would have learned that the “privilege” of being a survivor can mean having been assaulted by a classmate you trusted, ostracized for reporting or blamed by friends and family for what happened. So that is a yes then At Amherst College, survivors have been given the preposterous advice to take time off from school until the rapist graduates. Alleged rapist because no court ever pronounced the existence of a rapist, and if the alleged victim is super skeeved that the accused is still on campus this sounds like good advice to me At the University of California at Berkeley, the perks of being a survivor have included having a stay-away order issued by the university lifted and then allowingthe assailant assigned to your dorm.

Will also perpetuated disturbing myths about false reporting and consent. In truth, false reporting rates are extremely low — between 2 percent and 8 percent that is way to broad a range to start claiming that you know the fact, an we have data that indicates that the range runs higher — and obtaining consent from an individual at one point does not give you access to her body in perpetuity we would sure save a lot of trouble if we said that consent runs for 10 minutes, but I shan't hold my breath on that.

From reading Will’s column, you would think that universities are aggressively expelling students found guilty of assault Or that Washington is demanding such,,,Oh wait, they are. But colleges routinely shirk their responsibilities to alleged victims.As of this writing, 60 colleges and universities are under investigation for possible Title IX violations related to sexual violence on campus. Interesting that the mere act of launching an investigation in sexual assaults gets the university listed by the government, in most areas of the law the government has a policy of not even confirming that an investigation is ongoing. But there are benefits of being in league with the government, in this case the feminists beat up universities in the press when no wrong doing has even been alleged.

To refute the statistic that 1 in 5 women is the victim of sexual assault, Will offered “simple arithmetic” to indicate that this number is greatly inflated. He referenced the number of reported sexual assaults at one university — one that is under investigation for Title IX violations — and then suggested that its statistics are the rule go ahead, do his arithmetic on any school. The lack of victims to show when the feminist have advertised that there are NFL stadiums full of victims every year yet again proves to be a nasty problem.

He also relied upon Clery Act statistics, which are notoriously underreported . In some cases, colleges game these statistics by discouraging public reports or debating whether an incident really happened “on campus.” In some instances, the students who come forward to report are not included because they failed an unspoken and unpublished bureaucratic filing test for reporting. And in the worst cases, universities simply lie. Prove it

The silver lining to Will’s misguided op-ed column is that it has provoked a discussion about the uninformed attitudes held by some of our most revered political thinkers. Will seems to believe that efforts to address this issue undermine the prestige of academia. Sadly, too many universities share that attitude and have tried to ignore the problem. Will’s commentary laid bare the backward, “Mad Men” era mentality that survivors must combat every day. Have you ever talked to a 1960's era feminist? Most of them seem to be pretty ******* pissed that what women back then who had to put up with some actual oppression are equated with modern ignorant little bitches who go out and get themselves hammered then go someplace, crawl into bed with a man, and then cry RAPE! when sex happens. This is what they were fighting for, female idiocy? No.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/rep-jackie-speier-what-george-will-does-not-understand-about-sexual-assault/2014/06/10/21e4e80e-f0cd-11e3-bf76-447a5df6411f_story.html?hpid=z2
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 04:04 am
George Will also considers Ronald Reagan to be the greatest president the United States has ever had.

Unless you are a baseball fan, the guy is absolutely worthless as a source of information.

He wanted attention (anyone who looks and dresses as he does needs some) and he got it. That is the end of the story.
Moment-in-Time
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 04:33 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
George Will also considers Ronald Reagan to be the greatest president the United States has ever had.


George Will reminds me of a four-eyed rat scurrying all over the place. He trivializes rape on college campuses. The only thing notable regarding the caustic scrivener is his calling Donald Triumph a 'bloviating ignoramus." That's the only thing I give Wills credit for, recognizing the truth in Trump who was running for the presidency based on the lie Obama was born in Kenya.... Other than that, Wills, in my opinion, is a waste of sheer space and energy.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 04:33 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

George Will also considers Ronald Reagan to be the greatest president the United States has ever had.

Unless you are a baseball fan, the guy is absolutely worthless as a source of information.

He wanted attention (anyone who looks and dresses as he does needs some) and he got it. That is the end of the story.

and yet he has been able to make a living off of giving opinions, for decades. You like to get your opinions in the papers, has anyone offered to pay you for the work?

Perhaps you'd better stick to breaking down his argument here, rather than dismissing it wholesale. You dont want to be encouraging us to think that you are green with envy.
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 04:44 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:

Quote:
George Will also considers Ronald Reagan to be the greatest president the United States has ever had.



George Will reminds me of a four-eyed rat scurrying all over the place. He trivializes rape on college campuses. The only thing notable regarding the caustic scrivener is his calling Donald Triumph a 'bloviating ignoramus." That's the only thing I give Wills credit for, recognizing the truth in Trump who was running for the presidency based on the lie Obama was born in Kenya.... Other than that, Wills, in my opinion, is a waste of sheer space and energy.


Well then forget about the ************. What about this idea that progressives have become hysterical about claiming that there is a humongous amount of rape happening on university campuses? Is there a chance this is true? we get told lies all the time, how do we know that this is not another one?
Moment-in-Time
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 05:15 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:

What about this idea that progressives have become hysterical about claiming that there is a humongous amount of rape happening on university campuses? Is there a chance this is true?


You're damn right it's true! Truth be known, more than half of these acts go unreported, with many females feeling they will not be heard, are ashamed, blaming themselves, refusing to go and have a rape test performed....not wanting to makes waves. College is that time when male overactive Testosterone is at its peak and these young bulls think they have a right and will get away with it....and the majority do get away with it.

Quote:
we get told lies all the time, how do we know that this is not another one?


Being who you are, hawkeye 10, an aggressive chauvanistically narrow-minded individual, and the epitome of the worse in your southern culture of exclusion of some groups of humanity, I expect you to see the worse and to blame the victim. For it to be otherwise would be a total shock to me.

Have a good day, y'all heah.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 05:15 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

George Will also considers Ronald Reagan to be the greatest president the United States has ever had.

Unless you are a baseball fan, the guy is absolutely worthless as a source of information.

He wanted attention (anyone who looks and dresses as he does needs some) and he got it. That is the end of the story.

and yet he has been able to make a living off of giving opinions, for decades. You like to get your opinions in the papers, has anyone offered to pay you for the work?


Yup.

Quote:
Perhaps you'd better stick to breaking down his argument here, rather than dismissing it wholesale.


Perhaps I should do what all of us are allowed to do...to do what I want to do rather than what you want me to do, Hawk.

Quote:

You dont want to be encouraging us to think that you are green with envy.


Not at all...and I certainly am not "green with envy" over George Will. The guy is a mouse. I find him laughable...although as I indicated, he does occasionally write a decent column about baseball.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 06:15 am
@maxdancona,
This thread is not about George Will. The article I posted has nothing to do with George Will.

I am asking the question about what constitutes a rape and whether the story applies.

I think any rational definition of rape must be gender neutral. This means if the gender roles were reversed, the verdict should be the same.

If a man lies in bed next to a woman and claims to not want sex, but then after some minutes she takes off her clothes and starts sexual activity with him and he doesn't object... would this man be considered a rape victim?

Does anyone want to explain to me why this specific example is an example of rape?




Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 06:22 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

This thread is not about George Will. The article I posted has nothing to do with George Will.

I am asking the question about what constitutes a rape and whether the story applies.

I think any rational definition of rape must be gender neutral. This means if the gender roles were reversed, the verdict should be the same.

If a man lies in bed next to a woman and claims to not want sex, but then after some minutes she takes off her clothes and starts sexual activity with him and he doesn't object... would this man be considered a rape victim?

Does anyone want to explain to me why this specific example is an example of rape?



The thing you did quote, Max...trivializes a massive problem in the world right now.

NO...THAT DOES NOT SEEM TO CONSTITUTE RAPE...all things considered.

But anything less than an enthusiastic "yes" should be considered a firm "NO"...and unless there is the explicit agreement to engage...it can arguably be considered RAPE.

In this particular case, if I were on a jury considering it, I might very well vote "Not guilty."

But how often are the circumstances anything remotely like that...nor does it mitigate the problem of rape on this planet.

So in my opinion, discussing that nerd George Will is as decent and reasonable a way to go with this thread as anything else.


joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 08:39 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I find it both ridiculous and troubling that this story is being called "rape", putting it at the same level as a violent forced sexual attack.

It's not rape, at least not according to the Pennsylvania criminal code. It's sexual assault.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 08:59 am
@joefromchicago,
How is it assault?

Would it still constitute assault if the genders were reversed (the man was lying there and the woman was removing her clothing)?

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 09:06 am
@Frank Apisa,
(For the record, I did not thumb you down)

I am not trivializing anything.

My definition of rape involves coercion using physical violence or the threat of violence. I would expand my definition of coercion to include things like the use of drugs or manipulation of minors or people who are incapacitated. Obviously I think that rape is a problem and that it should be addressed in campuses and elsewhere.

Using the "rape" label in cases like this that don't involve coercion or violence or threats don't do any good for anyone.

In my opinion, by broadening the definition of "rape" so much you are trivializing rape. By your definition rape can occur between two responsible adults with no coercion, violence or threats. The word "rape" should be reserved for those heinous crimes where sex is coerced rather then meaning any of the socially muddy situations such as the one above.


0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  4  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 09:38 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

How is it assault?


Penn. Crim. Code § 3124.1. Sexual assault.

Except as provided in section 3121 (relating to rape) or 3123 (relating to involuntary deviate sexual intercourse), a person commits a felony of the second degree when that person engages in sexual intercourse or deviate sexual intercourse with a complainant without the complainant's consent.


In the example that you cited, where was the consent?

maxdancona wrote:
Would it still constitute assault if the genders were reversed (the man was lying there and the woman was removing her clothing)?

I don't know. How exactly would the woman have sexual intercourse with the man in that situation?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 09:44 am
@joefromchicago,
Just lying there is consent. He didn't force her to do anything, nor did he use any type of coercion.

Of course a woman do this (do I really need to explain the mechanics). She would do the same thing he did, remove clothing and then climb on top of him to initiate sexual activity. Millions of couple have sex every day this way, with no words being spoken... one partner just initiates sexual activity.

This doesn't constitute rape or assault.


bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 09:51 am
@hawkeye10,
Very nice job on your high lighting on Will's column. Thanks for breaking it down. This is the first time I ever 'got' Will. Two thumbs up.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 09:54 am
@maxdancona,
Too bad. This is the real discussion, not 'fake' rape. Your example was a rape. You don't need any violence and threats to make it more of a rape.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 09:55 am
@maxdancona,
How stupid are you. A woman getting undressed isn't the same as a guy undressing a woman and raping her.
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 09:57 am
@maxdancona,
Bullshit. She said "No" several times. What do you spin that as, 'insincerity'?
0 Replies
 
 

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