12
   

Is this really considered rape?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 05:03 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
People should be treated equally under the law.


go take a sampling of feminists and see how many agree with you. It will be damn few. The prevailing opinion is that men have the stick, they tend to be bigger than women and so can overpower women , it is always the women who get hurt when things go wrong, so the state needs to protect women by putting more responsibility on men. This assumes that men will try to get their stick into every hole that they can physically get onto, but lucky for us the feminists have already taught us that "MEN SUCK!" so we know that already.

Equality does not offer women enough protection from the bastards. The state needs to do more.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 05:08 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Quote:

In my opinion, the enthusiastic "YES" is essential to sexual consent.


I doubt very much that enthusiasm is required for consent.



You have a right to doubt anything you want, Max.

If you get an enthusiastic "YES" in answer to a request for sex (from an adult)...no problem.

If the response is anything less...then the possibility of a problem increases.

See it or don't see it.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 05:09 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I agree with this last post.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 05:11 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Quote:

As I said earlier, every guy should consider anything other than an enthusiastic "YES"...as a "NO."


... and why does this apply to only one gender?



It certainly doesn't...if he problem exists in the other direction.

Psst: It really doesn't! Women don't have to rape men. For the most part, all they have to do is make known that they have the need...and are available.

But I know for some...trying to make a point that really cannot be made...that will be disputed.

You have a right to dispute anything you want, Max.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 05:23 pm
I speak as a woman who was raped by a large man as a surprise. I said no in disbelief, but the door was about sixty feet away and he was at least a hundred pounds heavier and tossed me down. Does that give you a thrill? There were many consequences for me. I admit I was stupid, being there, as I'd not run into this kind of thing before. Or even heard of it.

Meantime, decades later, I'm not quite sure on this latest question.
I need to read the Will article to figure out the argument.


This is a very icky thread for me.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 05:25 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
For the most part, all they have to do is make known that they have the need...and are available.
I dont know if the stereotype that men want sex more than women was ever true, but I dont find it true now. In any case law should not be built on stereotypes that assume inequality. It is offensive, it is a violation of our morality.
Thomas
 
  6  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 05:46 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
People should be treated equally under the law.

I agree, but I don't think you know what that means. As Debra_Law and joefromchicago taught me years ago, equality under the law means that people in like circumstances be treated alike. This means, conversely, that the concept of equality is not applicable to people who aren't in the same circumstances to begin with.

For example, America's constitutional law around abortion is a liberty issue, not an equality issue, because men and women are not in the same circumstances regarding pregnancy and childbirth. As Anatole France might have satirized: "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids men and women alike to get back-alley abortions using coat hangers." This sentence is funny because its premise is absurd: Equality does not apply to abortion because men and women are not in like circumstances when it comes to being pregnant.

And what's true for abortions is also true for sexual intercourse: It places men and women in different circumstances. Intercourse only happens when a man is aroused enough to achieve and sustain penetration. It doesn't require anything comparable from the woman. Hence, the mere fact of penetration is evidence --- not proof, but evidence --- of consent by the man. That it isn't evidence of consent by the woman has nothing to do with inequality under the law. It has to do with men and women operating their reproductive organs under different circumstances.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 05:48 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
For the most part, all they have to do is make known that they have the need...and are available.
I dont know if the stereotype that men want sex more than women was ever true, but I dont find it true now. In any case law should not be built on stereotypes that assume inequality. It is offensive, it is a violation of our morality.



Yeah, sure. Tell the politicians to create some laws that insure women accused of rape will be treated equally with men so accused.

The politicians love those kinds of laws.

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 05:54 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:

This is a very icky thread for me.


I am sorry for this being an icky thread..

My feeling is that the story you tell is fundamentally different from the story in this thread. The issue is what constitutes consent (which is not a question with most rapes).

I think this is a valid issue that needs to be discussed. The question really is how to make society a better place for everyone, and addressing the problem of rape is an important part of that, but it needs to be discussed honestly and openly.

My initial reason for thinking about this issue is the messages that were being given to my pre-teen sons about sexuality. These messages were designed to reduce rape, but the basic message was that boys are dangerous and need to be controlled (this was the message given to my boys). What is being given is far from what I consider an open talk on healthy relationships.

For what its worth, I am not in complete agreement with George Will, and I don't like his article... but I do think that we need to have a real discussion about sexual relationships. Rape, sex without consent, should be strongly addressed and condemned.

Expanding the definition of rape to the point that it encompasses such a broad range of behavior doesn't help, nor does making the implicit assumption that most men are naturally rapists.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 05:59 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Intercourse only happens when a man is aroused enough to achieve and sustain penetration. It doesn't require anything comparable from the woman. Hence, the very fact of penetration is evidence --- not proof, but evidence --- of consent by the man.


This is completely false.

Arousal does not equal consent. Arousal is not evidence of consent. Think about what you are saying. Female's do get sexually aroused in noticeable ways (whether it is 'required' or not is logically irrelevant, it still factually happens). Can you imagine this being used as part of a rape defense? It is ridiculous.

This is a completely bogus argument legally, morally and scientifically.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 06:00 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Expanding the definition of rape to the point that it encompasses such a broad range of behavior doesn't help, nor does making the implicit assumption that most men are naturally rapists.

Unlike your broader philosophical argument, this is a perfectly lucid and reasonable point. If you want to run for the New-Jersey state legislature on a platform of reforming sexual-assault laws back towards the 1970s' status quo ante, you have my vote. (I'd draw the line at legalizing marital rape, though.)
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 06:02 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Female's do get sexually aroused in noticeable ways... . Can you imagine this being used as part of a rape defense?

No I can't, because it would be impossible for a male defendant to prove about a female plaintiff. The reverse, however, is perfectly possible indeed. As I said, men and women are not in like circumstances here. Your continuing appeals to equality are therefore baseless.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 06:14 pm
@Thomas,
I don't believe Hawkeye was referring to a statute or court decision, but to University policy and "due process."

Here is a recent example:

Student expelled from Duke for Sexual Misconduct

A female student alleged that student Lewis McLeod raped her after the two met at a bar and returned to his fraternity house that evening. McLeod claims the sex was consensual and came to a stop after she started crying.

Police investigated the matter and declined to charge McLeod, and the woman reported the incident to the Student Conduct Office at Duke.

Quote:
n March, a three-member Duke disciplinary panel ruled that the female student “had reached an incapacitating level of intoxication that rendered her unable to give consent to sex,” and that “a reasonable person would have known [complainant] was too intoxicated to be able to give consent,”


McLeod was found guilty of sexual misconduct and expelled just months before he was to graduate.

McLeod filed a breach of contract suit against Duke and claimed that the panel refused to hear testimony from key witnesses (among who were his fraternity brothers) but accepted and relied upon hearsay evidence from an anonymous party. He also alleges Duke discouraged him from seeking legal counsel and that the basis for the decision was an unpublished school policy.

Quote:
“[W]hen Mr. McLeod’s representative asked for a copy of the policy, Dean Stephen Bryan slammed the door in Mr. McLeod’s face and said, ‘You can get it when you sue us,’” according to the complaint.


A North Carolina Supreme Court judge rejected Duke's motion to dismiss the suit and enjoined the school from expelling McLeod

Quote:
“The plaintiff has demonstrated a likelihood of success on the merits as to his contentions that the defendant has breached, violated, or otherwise deprived the plaintiff of material rights related to the misconduct allegations against him and the resulting disciplinary process addressing such allegations,”


The Panel applied the preponderance of evidence standard and so "reasonable doubt" was not even in play. Regardless, one would have expected that the hearing would have been conducted with some measure of fairness.

It's difficult to understand how their refusal to even listen to McLeod's witnesses represents due process, not to mention his inability to confront the anonymous second had "witness." The only student on the panel had done research on "sexual violence."

A critical piece by Brooklyn History Professor K.C. Johnson on the Minding The Campus website contains the following:

Quote:
One rationalization for those who defend the OCR’s (Office of Civil Rights) crusade against due process is that students deemed rapists by their colleges don’t really suffer that much—after all, they don’t go to jail, and no one is legally entitled to a college education. This is an absurd claim, of course: being branded a rapist will foreclose significant future educational and employment opportunities. McLeod’s case is a particularly obvious example: he’s Australian, and in the United States on a student visa. He had a job lined up—but will lose the job (and the visa) without a degree, and therefore will be kicked out of the country.


Quote:
independent reporter John Tucker covered the hearing, and it seemed as if Wasiolek’s (Duke's Dean Sue Wasiolek - who btw advised the Duke Lacrosse Players not to inform their parents of their proceeding) testimony didn’t go very well for the school. She admitted that Duke had never placed the presumption of expulsion in its published student handbook—but suggested this didn’t matter. “It is an understood practice. ... We didn't feel the need to make it public.” How something that’s not public can be an understood as standard must remain a mystery.

And she appeared to concede that Duke doesn’t take seriously Title IX’s promise of not discriminating on the basis of gender. Noting Duke’s finding that a rape occurs when a panel concludes based on 50.01 percent probability that a student had reached an incapacitating level of intoxication that rendered the student unable to give consent to sex, McLeod’s lawyer asked Wasiolek what happened if both students were drunk. In that case, presumably, “they have raped each other and are subject to expulsion.” Not so, stated Wasiolek: “Assuming it is a male and female, it is the responsibility in the case of the male to gain consent before proceeding with sex.” How this policy can be reconciled with Title IX must remain a mystery.


Not everyone has the standard of reasonable doubt to rely upon for their defense in significant proceedings concerning rape.

KC Johnson Article

Lest anyone assume Professor Johnson is a reactionary misogynist who somehow slipped through Brooklyn College's ideological filter, here is a profile of him:

Johnson Profile
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 06:16 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
As I said, men and women are not in like circumstances here.


They are in exactly the same situation, trying to make sure that their sex act meets state demands for consent. This is done by freely and knowingly agreeing to enter the sex act. Consent does not need to, nor should it, have anything to do with gender differences. As long as we have decided to hyper regulate sex with law then the law should show equality. Negotiating for sex should be no different than negotiating to buy a car, the gender of the buyer and seller makes zero difference to the law, and neither should the gender of those negotiating for sex,
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 06:30 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
It's difficult to understand how their refusal to even listen to McLeod's witnesses represents due process, not to mention his inability to confront the anonymous second had "witness." The only student on the panel had done research on "sexual violence."

I agree that the university's process, as described, was that of a kangaroo court. Did North Carolina reach any verdict on the merits of the case yet?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 06:36 pm
My immediate take is that this one was not rape (but I haven't read the articles, wasn't there), so ignore that, I'll say when I know more.
Too tired - will there now be a battle ground on either side?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2014 09:27 pm
@Thomas,
Not yet.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 07:26 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
If you want to run for the New-Jersey state legislature on a platform of reforming sexual-assault laws back towards the 1970s' status quo ante, you have my vote.

On second thought, no you don't have my vote. "No means no" is a pretty clear standard. I think we should keep it. The guy in your story had heard an explicit "no" to sex. After that, he shouldn't have interpreted mere passivity as implicit consent. He did it anyway and got in trouble for it, and that's fine: he should be in trouble. We can discuss whether "rape" is a misnomer for the offense he's guilty of, but that's just semantics. Even if it is a misnomer, the law should convict your guy of some charge.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 07:29 am
@Thomas,
Allowing someone to take off your underwear as you are lying next to them in their bed is not "mere passivity".
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 07:35 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Thomas wrote:
If you want to run for the New-Jersey state legislature on a platform of reforming sexual-assault laws back towards the 1970s' status quo ante, you have my vote.

On second thought, no you don't have my vote.
"No means no" is a pretty clear standard. I think we should keep it.
The guy in your story had heard an explicit "no" to sex.
How much time shud he allow to elapse b4 he brings up the subject again
( or shud he just effect a permanent replacement ) ?
0 Replies
 
 

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