12
   

Is this really considered rape?

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 07:38 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
the law should convict your guy of some charge.
Criminal negligence for failure to use a nice, safe bordello ?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 09:17 am
@maxdancona,
Generally speaking, I'm with you on this issue Max, but allowing someone to remove your underwear as you are lying next to them in bed could very well be a matter of passivity or even fear. You would need some additional evidence of the person's state of mind to draw a clearer conclusion.

In this case her blase statement "I was tired so I let him finish." does suggest a state of mind that was something much different than repulsion, fear, outrage , etc.

Still, the fact (as it appears to be) that she simply lay there and let him go about his business is an indication that she was not interested in having sex with him. Frankly this should have been enough for the clod to stop his piggish behavior.

Tolerating intercourse, as if it was the buzzing of a fly, is not consent, but it is hard to make a reasonable (as opposed to technical) case that his act was rape or assault.

The law is what it is though, and though. I might have a hard time voting guilty if I were on the jury, but others surely would not, and they would certainly not be unreasonable in their decision to follow the letter of the law.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 10:09 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Still, the fact (as it appears to be) that she simply lay there and let him go about his business is an indication that she was not interested in having sex with him. Frankly this should have been enough for the clod to stop his piggish behavior.


If we are passing personal I don't think that the man is the only "clod" here.

There is possible way I can imagine, let me rephrase that...

There is no way in Hell that I would crawl into bed with an ex-lover with whom I had no interest in having sex. Of course this has nothing to do with whether this was rape or not and it doesn't excuse anything.

But who in their right mind would do this? It is sick really.


hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 10:19 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
But who in their right mind would do this? It is sick really.
Sadists come in both genders. The feminists dont really mind men being tormented by women.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 10:24 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
"No means no" is a pretty clear standard. I think we should keep it


if only we could. It will be "yes means yes, but not just any yes, and enthusiastic yes given by a person who is in their right mind who has not been under "too much" pressure to say yes (and this pressure might be all in her head). The state will let you know after the fact if the consent was good enough to avoid a rape charge.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 10:48 am
@hawkeye10,
Jackie Speier does a nice job contributing to the politically motivated hysteria about campus rape.

Will did not write that the "sexual assault epidemic on our campuses" is overblown, because he denies that it exists. In his column he argues that the actual rate of experience is 2.9%, not 20%. He also acknowledges that 2.9% is too high, and I'm sure he would agree that any % is unacceptable, just as he would agree that eliminating incidents of rape and assault is impossible.

Will's comment about nurturing a generation of students who aspire to victimhood obviously spoke to a far wider situation that included any number of incidents of "micro-aggression." Nevertheless it was unartful and easily led to Speier's clearly accurate charge that rape victims don't enjoy that particular status. Will is pretty pompous and often can't imagine that anything he writes or says could have been better phrased.

In a cogent article in Slate, Emily Bazelon and Rachael Larimore conclude that the percentage of false rape accusations is between 8% and 10% and that while this may appear to be a small rate of incidence, it means that of the 200,000 rape reports filed in 2008, between 16,000 and 20,000 were likely to have been false. These are not insignificant numbers, particularly to the 16,000 to 20,000 men falsely accused (see KC Johnson's comment on the ramifications of being accused of rape provided in a prior post).

The authors arrive at a very sensible conclusion:

Quote:
We're left to draw the following conclusion: False allegations of rape aren't rampant. But they don't have to be to cause terrible trouble. This is a problem that a men's rights movement shouldn't trump up. And also one that feminists can't dismiss.


Slate

There are enough incidents of campus kangaroo courts to conclude that the terrible trouble caused by false accusations, while not of epidemic proportions, is most pronounced on campus.

The ideological and political gains from over blowing the incidence of sexual assault on campuses should be obvious, but let's assume folks like Speier are accurate and rape and sexual assault have reached epidemic proportions at colleges? Why would this be the case?

Surely feminists are not acknowledging that a movement, in its modern American form, that has been ongoing for over 50 years has had no impact on how men view women?

Certainly an argument can be made that over the last 50 years society has changed to the extent that women are perhaps more likely to report rape and sexual assault than previously, but Speier and her confreres are alleging that this really is something of fairly recent vintage, either implicitly or explicitly connecting it to some rising tide of conservative misogynist attitudes and/or the Republican "War on Women." After all, college athletes seem to be a frequent target of these charges and we all know how conservative and Neanderthal jocks are. (If there have been any credible studies of the political beliefs of college athletes, I can't find them.)

It's not a coincidence that many of the true and false accusations of campus sexual assault involve the consumption of alcohol, and in great quantities, as well as involving existing or pre-existing relationships between the woman and man; relationships that included sex. Society's attitude toward casual sex is due to the changing mores that are a product of or gave birth to feminism. In the college environment where casual sex is so prevalent and one-night stands do not stigmatize either the man or the woman; where alcohol is the students' drug of choice and women are not limited by social convention to not get as wasted as any frat boy, is it really that surprising that incidents of alleged (true or false) sexual misconduct might be on the rise?

This is not to condemn casual sex or even drinking, nor is it to suggest, in any way, that by women adopting heretofore male attitudes about these behaviors that they have invited sexual assault. It is to suggest though that significant changes in societal perceptions of morality can have a downside as well as an upside, just as long standing traditions can.



Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 10:49 am
@maxdancona,
Oh I agree relative to the woman's behavior. They're both quite a pair.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 10:51 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
There is no way in Hell that I would crawl into bed with an ex-lover with whom I had no interest in having sex. Of course this has nothing to do with whether this was rape or not and it doesn't excuse anything.

But who in their right mind would do this? It is sick really.

That's funny, there's no way in hell that I would screw a woman who just told me "no." I mean, who in their right mind would do this? It is sick, really.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 10:53 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
In a cogent article in Slate, Emily Bazelon and Rachael Larimore conclude that the percentage of false rape accusations is between 8% and 10% and that while this may appear to be a small rate of incidence,


Are between 8 and 10% of those who call the cops saying that their car was stolen lying? These numbers are alarming for many reasons, and they are likely too low.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 10:56 am
@hawkeye10,
That may be, but the point is that even at 8% to 10% they are not insignificant.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 11:18 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Jackie Speier does a nice job contributing to the politically motivated hysteria about campus rape.

Will did not write that the "sexual assault epidemic on our campuses" is overblown, because he denies that it exists. In his column he argues that the actual rate of experience is 2.9%, not 20%. He also acknowledges that 2.9% is too high, and I'm sure he would agree that any % is unacceptable, just as he would agree that eliminating incidents of rape and assault is impossible.

Will's comment about nurturing a generation of students who aspire to victimhood obviously spoke to a far wider situation that included any number of incidents of "micro-aggression." Nevertheless it was unartful and easily led to Speier's clearly accurate charge that rape victims don't enjoy that particular status. Will is pretty pompous and often can't imagine that anything he writes or says could have been better phrased.

In a cogent article in Slate, Emily Bazelon and Rachael Larimore conclude that the percentage of false rape accusations is between 8% and 10% and that while this may appear to be a small rate of incidence, it means that of the 200,000 rape reports filed in 2008, between 16,000 and 20,000 were likely to have been false. These are not insignificant numbers, particularly to the 16,000 to 20,000 men falsely accused (see KC Johnson's comment on the ramifications of being accused of rape provided in a prior post).

The authors arrive at a very sensible conclusion:

Quote:
We're left to draw the following conclusion: False allegations of rape aren't rampant. But they don't have to be to cause terrible trouble. This is a problem that a men's rights movement shouldn't trump up. And also one that feminists can't dismiss.


Slate

There are enough incidents of campus kangaroo courts to conclude that the terrible trouble caused by false accusations, while not of epidemic proportions, is most pronounced on campus.

The ideological and political gains from over blowing the incidence of sexual assault on campuses should be obvious, but let's assume folks like Speier are accurate and rape and sexual assault have reached epidemic proportions at colleges? Why would this be the case?

Surely feminists are not acknowledging that a movement, in its modern American form, that has been ongoing for over 50 years has had no impact on how men view women?

Certainly an argument can be made that over the last 50 years society has changed to the extent that women are perhaps more likely to report rape and sexual assault than previously, but Speier and her confreres are alleging that this really is something of fairly recent vintage, either implicitly or explicitly connecting it to some rising tide of conservative misogynist attitudes and/or the Republican "War on Women." After all, college athletes seem to be a frequent target of these charges and we all know how conservative and Neanderthal jocks are. (If there have been any credible studies of the political beliefs of college athletes, I can't find them.)

It's not a coincidence that many of the true and false accusations of campus sexual assault involve the consumption of alcohol, and in great quantities, as well as involving existing or pre-existing relationships between the woman and man; relationships that included sex. Society's attitude toward casual sex is due to the changing mores that are a product of or gave birth to feminism. In the college environment where casual sex is so prevalent and one-night stands do not stigmatize either the man or the woman; where alcohol is the students' drug of choice and women are not limited by social convention to not get as wasted as any frat boy, is it really that surprising that incidents of alleged (true or false) sexual misconduct might be on the rise?

This is not to condemn casual sex or even drinking, nor is it to suggest, in any way, that by women adopting heretofore male attitudes about these behaviors that they have invited sexual assault. It is to suggest though that significant changes in societal perceptions of morality can have a downside as well as an upside, just as long standing traditions can.






That is why I say that anything less than an enthusiastic "YES" should be considered a "NO"...

...and "no" means NO!

Anything less than an enthusiastic "YES"...is NOT REALLY A "yes!"


maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 11:47 am
@Frank Apisa,
ummm yeah I kind of agree with you (but not enthusiastically).
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 11:56 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

ummm yeah I kind of agree with you (but not enthusiastically).


Wink
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jun, 2014 07:35 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
"No means no" is a pretty clear standard. I think we should keep it. The guy in your story had heard an explicit "no" to sex. After that, he shouldn't have interpreted mere passivity as implicit consent....

I agree that "No means no" is a clear standard, and one we should retain. But the "No" or "Stop" has to be clearly conveyed at the time of the act of intercourse, or as the act is initiated. That's not the situation in the scenario described in the OP.
Quote:
Soon, he was putting his arm around her and taking off her clothes. “I basically said, ‘No, I don’t want to have sex with you.’ And then he said, ‘Okay, that’s fine’ and stopped,” Sendrow told me. “And then he started again a few minutes later, taking off my panties, taking off his boxers. I just kind of laid there and didn’t do anything — I had already said no. I was just tired and wanted to go to bed. I let him finish. I pulled my panties back on and went to sleep.”

Although she initially told him she didn't want to have sex, when he approached her again, she allowed him to remove her panties and, "I let him finish"--she implied consent by her lack of objection to what he was doing, and it was knowing consent on her part, "I let him finish"--meaning she chose to offer no resistance, or verbal protest, in a situation that did not involve forcible compulsion or threat, and she was fully conscious and aware of what he was doing, and she was capable of indicating lack of consent. That's not rape.

This is the law in New York State...the situation described would have been rape in the third degree if, at the time of the intercourse, she had said, "No, stop," or tried to push him off, tried to get out from under him, etc., and he ignored her, and had intercourse with her against her will. In that case, the third degree rape charge would be a felony.

Quote:
§130.05 Sex offenses; lack of consent.
1.
Whether or not specifically stated, it is an element of every offense defined in this article that the sexual act was committed without consent of the victim. (Eff.11/1/03,Ch.264.L.2003)

2.
Lack of consent results from:
(a) Forcible compulsion; or
(b) Incapacity to consent; or
(c) Where the offense charged is sexual abuse of forcible touching, any circumstances, in addition to forcible compulsion or incapacity to consent, in which the victim does not expressly or impliedly acquiesce in the actor’s conduct; or (Eff.11/1/03,Ch.264.L.2003)
(d) Where the offense charged is rape in the third degree as defined in subdivision three of section 130.25, or criminal sexual act in the third degree as defined in subdivision three of section 130.40, in addition to forcible compulsion, circumstances under which, at the time of the act of intercourse or deviate sexual intercourse, the victim clearly expressed that he or she did not consent to engage in such act, and a reasonable person in the actor’s situation would have understood such person’s words and acts as an expression of lack of consent to such act under all the circumstances. (Eff.11/1/03,Ch.264.L.2003)
http://www.slc.edu/offices-services/security/assault/Penal_Law.html


Under NYS law she would be seen as consenting, because she failed to communicate her lack of consent at the time of the act.
Quote:
We can discuss whether "rape" is a misnomer for the offense he's guilty of, but that's just semantics. Even if it is a misnomer, the law should convict your guy of some charge.


I wouldn't see him as guilty of any type of sexual assault. He's inconsiderate, but he really did not violate the law. The situation described is not a rape.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jun, 2014 07:44 pm
@ossobuco,
Sorry, I can't stand to read all of this, nothing against any of you.

Carry on talking.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jun, 2014 08:07 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:

Expanding the definition of rape to the point that it encompasses such a broad range of behavior doesn't help...

New York State has only one definition of rape---"He or she engages in sexual intercourse with another person without such person’s consent."
“Sexual intercourse” has its ordinary meaning and occurs upon any penetration, however slight.

There are different degrees of the crime of rape, but the definition of the act of "rape" is the same for all of them.

Does your state have other definitions of "rape" in your sexual assault laws?

The federal definition of rape is the only one that is more inclusive. But the federal definition is mainly for national data collection.
Quote:
“The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”
http://blogs.justice.gov/main/archives/1801

The federal definition is mainly for national data collection for crime statistics. Sexual assaults/rape are generally prosecuted on the state level, under the definitions and laws of each state.

In New York State, only the penetration of the vagina by the penis is considered rape. The other types of sexual contacts, mentioned in the federal definition, are classified as criminal sexual assaults, or aggravated sexual assaults.

So, what are the alleged "expanded definitions of rape" that go beyond sexual intercourse without consent?







Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2014 07:46 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
So, what are the alleged "expanded definitions of rape" that go beyond sexual intercourse without consent?

All the definitions you cited expand the definitions we used a generation or two ago, when coercion was a necessary element of rape. There's no question that the gentleman in Max Dancona's story would not have been guilty of rape in, say, 1970.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2014 02:13 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
All the definitions you cited expand the definitions we used a generation or two ago, when coercion was a necessary element of rape. There's no question that the gentleman in Max Dancona's story would not have been guilty of rape in, say, 1970.

But "rape" has always been sexual intercourse against the will of the victim. And state laws still describe "rape" as a criminal act of sexual intercourse. It doesn't refer to other types of sexual contacts. In that sense, the definition has not changed, or expanded.

I'm of the impression that some people think the term "rape" refers to acts other than sexual intercourse, but, legally it does not. Other non-consenting acts of sexual contact are defined differently.

What has changed, somewhat, is the degree of coercion the law requires to consider the act illegal. In addition to forcible compulsion and serious threat, disregard of the victim's verbal, or behavioral, indications of non-consent is now sufficient to consider the act "rape". But, implicit in that condition is still the notion that the victim has had an unwanted act forced upon them.

I don't think the man described in the OP would be considered a rapist now, and there is no indication he was adjudicated and found to be in violation of either state law or the college's code of conduct. I think the OP is an intentional strawman set up by maxdancona.

If you read the link provided in the OP, that relates to the excerpt provided, the woman, sometime after the fact, told a college counselor she had been "raped" by this man under those circumstances. The point of the article seems to be that her complaint was not regarded seriously, and she was never informed of the outcome of any investigation, or told whether any investigation was even made. That's a whole different issue, and relates to how colleges handle these matters, and not to whether the scenario she reported legally constitutes a rape.

We have no idea why, a few months later, this woman felt she had been raped that night, and decided to report it to a college counselor. Her reasons for doing so are also apart from whether the man in question actually violated any state laws by his actions.

To add to the confusion in discussing this topic, colleges have their own codes of conduct, and their own standards for defining, investigating, and adjudicating, complaints of sexual assaults, that may differ considerably from the laws of their state. Students at colleges are governed by both the codes of conduct of their particular school as well as by the laws of the state in which the college is located. But, for all other citizens in the state, only the state laws apply.

It is possible that the male student described in the OP might have violated his school's code for Sexual Misconduct, as the school defines it, but he might not have violated state rape laws. It also must be remembered that college codes of conduct do not generally use terms like "rape" that pertain to felony crimes--they use the broader, and often less legally serious, terms like "sexual assault" and "sexual misconduct", closer to things which can be regarded as misdemeanors under the law, and the maximum punishment they can administer for violations is to expel a student from their campus. Their definitions do serve to downplay the seriousness of many crimes of sexual assault, which then affects their crime reporting statistics, and that's partly what has created the brouhaha about deficiencies in the way they handle the entire matter of sexual assaults of any type.

So, in discussing an issue like "rape", and whether an act is "rape", I think we have to look to state laws to define the term, since colleges don't even seem to use it in describing an act. And we also have to look to state laws to define "non-consent" as well. As noted in my previous post, NYS does require some indication of non-consent, "No means no", for sexual intercourse to be considered "rape"--and that non-consent must be given at the time of the act--not merely 5 or 10 minutes before anything took place. This does shift a burden of responsibility onto the victim to make their lack of consent clear--particularly when forcible compulsion, or threat of forcible compulsion, is not involved--the law in NYS does not require a possible perpetrator to be a mind reader, nor does it require an unequivocally affirmative, "Yes!" as the only indication of consent.

I feel the female described in the OP made a conscious voluntary decision to allow the male to engage in sexual intercourse with her, without any verbal protestations on her part, and without any attempts on her part to just get up and leave the situation, in a situation that involved no threats or forcible compulsion, or restraint, and in which she could have called an immediate halt to her participation, just as she had earlier done. In that particular situation, and under those circumstances, her complete passivity regarding the male's behavior, and her lack of any protest and objection to it, could be easily perceived as consent by him, or by any other reasonable person in his situation. That's why he would not be guilty of a rape--at least not in NYS.

There is a responsibility on the initiator of sexual contact to be sure that consent is present, as state law defines the conditions of consent, but there is also a corresponding responsibility on the part of any fully conscious, and aware, and competent, and non-helpless, adult potential victim to give some clear indication of non-consent in those situations where forcible compulsion, or threat of forcible compulsion, is not a factor, and the sexual contact is definitely unwanted.









maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2014 05:03 pm
@firefly,
I don't think you are using the word "strawman" correctly.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2014 05:11 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
What has changed, somewhat, is the degree of coercion the law requires to consider the act illegal. In addition to forcible compulsion and serious threat, disregard of the victim's verbal, or behavioral, indications of non-consent is now sufficient to consider the act "rape". But, implicit in that condition is still the notion that the victim has had an unwanted act forced upon them.


We have vastly expanded the range of sex acts to touching that are considered sex crimes, yet here you are in your fourth year on A2K arguing that not much has changed. Why you squander a huge portion of your reputation by arguing a easy to prove fallacy I have not been able to figure out.
0 Replies
 
 

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