Is George Bush a fundamentalist christian?

Beliefs being what one wants to be true translates to communicating through fictions. The writers of the Bible certainly knew that.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Thank you LW. The fact is any serious search will find GWB's pronouncements re God/religion etc. no more sinister than the many many MANY references of God/religion that Bill Clinton, or Ronald Reagon, or Jimmy Carter used in political rhetoric.

Foxfyre, do you have any other presidents in mind that have put religious belief as a requirement to judicial appointments?

Quote:

Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH: We need commonsense judges who understand that our rights were derived from God. And those are the kind of judges I intend to put on the bench.

The Jesus Factor transcript

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Well, he could have gone all day without making that statement about judges. There are some sensible and nonsensical moral dictums in the Bible and it doesn't rely a great deal on common sense.

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And to assume that GWB puts any requirement on judges other than that they be competent judges just because somebody else says he does doesn't look like good research to me.

Seems to me the opportunistic spinners out there are preying on some of your religious prejudices. If they can make GWB look like some kind of religious fanatic, then they can score points with some of you.

I suggest you do your own research. See what other president, including the previous one, said about God, religion, how important it was, how it played a part, etc. You will find GWB no more sinister.

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Fact sheets on confirmed anti-choice judges... http://www.naral.org/Issues/courts/confirmed_anti_noms.cfm

Fact sheets on nominated anti-choice nominees...
http://www.naral.org/Issues/courts/pending_anti_judges.cfm

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more

http://www.movingideas.org/issuesindepth/judicial.html

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Come up with some 'fact sheets' that are NOT put together by anti-Bush, pro-abortion advocates Blatham, and we will have a more productive discussion.

You will not, I believe, be able to find any statement or policy that proves GWB has any kind of litmus test for the judges he appoints other than they have a solid grasp of the law and have proved to be competent in their judiciary responsibilities.

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I'm not comfortable with Bush's credentials to select judges for the highest court. Of course, I know there will the be response that he is our "CEO" President and has advisors. I'm not comfortable with his advisors. Really wonder if it doesn't include his legal staff who are lawyers. Lawyers should not only not be concocting laws, they should also not be instrumental in appointing judges.

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Sorry fox, but your casual dismissal provides no compelling reason why anyone ought to think it credible.

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All I ask of any president is that he appoint judges who are well schooled in constitutional law and who interpret that law for the matters before them but do not 'create new law' when they can't make it fit. We have had a proactive court that writes law far more than what I believe the constitution ever intended. And when the Supremes do it, who is there to say that the ruling of the high Court itself is unconstitutional?

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Foxfyre wrote:

And to assume that GWB puts any requirement on judges other than that they be competent judges just because somebody else says he does doesn't look like good research to me.

That was a quote from the lips of G.W.. Let me show it to you again. It looks straight forward to me. He wants "judges that understand that our rights were derived from God". That is about as close to saying that the Bible trumps the constitution as you can get.

Quote:

Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH: We need commonsense judges who understand that our rights were derived from God. And those are the kind of judges I intend to put on the bench.

Foxfyre wrote:

Seems to me the opportunistic spinners out there are preying on some of your religious prejudices. If they can make GWB look like some kind of religious fanatic, then they can score points with some of you.

No spinners were involved. The religious predjudice in this case is squarely in Bush's lap. He did not sugar coat his intentions or talk in code.

Foxfyre wrote:

I suggest you do your own research. See what other president, including the previous one, said about God, religion, how important it was, how it played a part, etc. You will find GWB no more sinister.

I did my research. You are the one with the stated position that Bush is no different from other presidents re. religion. I am not aware of any other past president that has stated his bias quite so clearly. Not only has he stated it, but his actions as pointed out by Blatham are in concert with his stated intentions.

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Foxfyre wrote:

All I ask of any president is that he appoint judges who are well schooled in constitutional law and who interpret that law for the matters before them but do not 'create new law' when they can't make it fit. We have had a proactive court that writes law far more than what I believe the constitution ever intended. And when the Supremes do it, who is there to say that the ruling of the high Court itself is unconstitutional?

Well, yes, we knew your understanding of constitutional law and jurisprudence would be just as you say it. It is the interpretation shared by Scalia and Thomas and Bork and the conservative movement.

It is NOT the interpretation or understanding of other SC members or of many other constitutional legal scholars.

I can mail you something from Ronald Dworkin, if you like.

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So there's a flaw in the system. I'm aghast. And GWB isn't smart enough to fix it? I'm even more aghast.

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Mesquite, when GWB references "God given rights" he is referencing the 'inalienable' rights which all freedom loving people value. It references the sentiment found in the "Declaration of Independence":

Quote:

That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

I'm very sorry you find any references to God or religion as offensive. I am much encouraged that GWB wants judges who understand the principles of the Declaration and the Constitution. Our founding fathers were in no way offended by nor did they shy from references to God and, as 90% plus of Americans report that they believe in a supreme being, I think you are probably in the minority here.

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What do we do with you foxfyre?

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I'm very sorry you [Mesquite] find any references to God or religion as offensive.

Of course, Mesquite didn't say that. To attribute the remark to him is deceitful.

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I am much encouraged that GWB wants judges who understand the principles of the Declaration and the Constitution.

That's deceitful too. What you more correctly ought to have said is "I am much encouraged that GWB wants judges who believe as I do regarding how the constitution ought to be interpreted." You pretend, and it is a false pretence, that there is but one proper interpretation of constitutional law. Very simply, that is not held to be so by many constitutional scholars and SC members, as I pointed out earlier.

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Our founding fathers were in no way offended by nor did they shy from references to God

Fine. Neither are/do any of us. I am entirely unoffended by references to god.

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as 90% plus of Americans report that they believe in a supreme being, I think you are probably in the minority here.

What a majority think doesn't tell us anything other than what a majority think. A majority of Tibetians would think what? A majority of southern Americans not long ago thought interracial marriage was obscene. A majority of Europeans think George Bush is a dangerous fool.

Quote:

Mesquite, when GWB references "God given rights" he is referencing the 'inalienable' rights which all freedom loving people value.

Are you contrasting those people to some 'bondage loving peoples' elsewhere? More importantly, Bush is doing rather more with the quote Mesquite gave than what you suggest. Mesquite quotes Bush as saying..."judges that understand that our rights were derived from God".

Many judges, many theologians, and many moral philosophers don't share Bush's or your notion that all such rights derive ONLY from god. That's a notion SOME theists hold, and you are such a one. Nor did all the founders of your nation. It's easy enough to find very many Christians and Jews and Buddhists etc who are entirely in disagreement with the claim that all rights derive from god, or that the constitution ought to be interpreted as you wish it to be.

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Quote:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush's re-election campaign is trying to recruit supporters from 1,600 religious congregations in Pennsylvania -- a political push that critics said Wednesday could cost churches their tax breaks.

An e-mail from the campaign's Pennsylvania office, obtained by The Associated Press, urges churchgoers to help organize ``Friendly Congregations'' where supporters can meet regularly to sign up voters and spread the Bush word.

``I'd like to ask if you would like to serve as a coordinator in your place of worship,'' says the e-mail, adorned with the Bush-Cheney logo, from Luke Bernstein, who runs the state campaign's coalitions operation and is a former staffer to Sen. Rick Santorum, the president's Pennsylvania chairman.

``We plan to undertake activities such as distributing general information/updates or voter registration materials in a place accessible to the congregation,'' the e-mail says.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Bush-Churches.html

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Foxfyre wrote:

Mesquite, when GWB references "God given rights" he is referencing the 'inalienable' rights which all freedom loving people value. It references the sentiment found in the "Declaration of Independence":

Yes, I am aware that the Declaration of Independence mentioned Creator. It also mentions "the laws of Nature and Natures God". Both terms were commonly used by Deists. You will note however, and this is significant, when it came down to writing the Constitution which is the foundation of our government, there is NO mention of any diety.

Foxfyre wrote:

I'm very sorry you find any references to God or religion as offensive.

We have been here before. Please get it this time. I am not offended by the mention of God or religion. I do take exception however when religion enters our government. Here is the quote again, What George Bush is essentially saying is that he is putting a religious test to his selection of judges. You know very well that when George Bush mentions "God", he is not referring to a generic god. He means his GOD, and that is why you relate to him.

Quote:

Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH: We need commonsense judges who understand that our rights were derived from God. And those are the kind of judges I intend to put on the bench.

Foxfyre wrote:

I am much encouraged that GWB wants judges who understand the principles of the Declaration and the Constitution.

If that is what he meant, then he could have said that. Your psychic powers are amazing.

Foxfyre wrote:

Our founding fathers were in no way offended by nor did they shy from references to God and, as 90% plus of Americans report that they believe in a supreme being, I think you are probably in the minority here.

I am with Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferaon, James Madison, Thomas Paine in wanting to keep religion out of government.

Quote:

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle.
-- Benjamin Franklin, the incompatibility of faith and reason, Poor Richard's Almanack (1758)

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies.
-- Benjamin Franklin, quoted from Victor J. Stenger, Has Science Found God? (2001)

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I have been searching for evidence concerning the feelings of Europeans about President George W. Bush. It has been mentioned that a majority of Europeans think he is a "dangerous fool"

I am quite interested in finding some evidence for that. I have seen no polls done in Europe which say that President Bush is considered a "dangerous fool" by the majority( I guess that would mean over 50%) of Europeans. Does anyone have a link?

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The name of Ronald Dworkin has been invoked as an "Authority".

It may be that some feel that his arguments and reasoning are persuasive. Not everyone agrees.

I must quote the eminent jurist, Richard A. Posner, who in his highly praised and excellent study, "Overcoming Law" makes this observation about Dworkin:

"Dworkin believes that only his approach can prevent constitutional doctrine from changing with every change in the composition of the court. This belief, another example of the intellectualist fallacy, exaggerates both the possibility of cogent theorizing at the high level of abstraction implied by the holistic approach, and the fidelity of judges, especially Supreme Court Justices, whose decisions are unreviewable, to the doctrines of their predecessors. Nothing but force majeure can prevent judges from giving vent to their political and personal values, if that is what they want to do. They may not want to,if they are thoroughly imbued with the old fashioned formalist virtues of stare decisis and strict construction. But of course, Dworkin does not want that. He approves of Brown, and Griswold and Roe. He wants to package novelty as orthodoxy."

It is obvious that Judge Posner does not think very much of Dworkin's approach.

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The eminent jurist, Richard A. Posner - yes, we mist him being mentioned here since months Laughing

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Is George Bush a fundamentalist christian?

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