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Is George Bush a fundamentalist christian?

 
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 May, 2004 06:17 am
In today's NY Times, Frank Rich writes the religious right has figured out who's to blame for the prisoner mis-treatment. No, it's not them. It's Howard Stern. I thought it would come out the it was all Spec. England's idea, you know, the whole thing. She thought up the WMD stuff and got the US to invade so that she could satisfy her lust upon some brown men, but no, it goes further up the chain, or leash, as the case might be. Not the chain of command, no no, horrors, no. Up the chain of culture. Here Frank says it better :

It was the porn that made them do it

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/30/arts/30RICH.html

Rolling Eyes Joe
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 May, 2004 11:22 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
Quote:
A firm belief in Creationism is a guage of whether one is a fundamentalist as this would nearly always mean a belief in the entire Old Testament including the dubious Leviticus. I don't believe there is enough confirmed information about what Bush believes on this subject or, for that matter, any other subject. His speeches are written in the usual political rhetoric which provide more riddles than answers.


Thank you LW. The fact is any serious search will find GWB's pronouncements re God/religion etc. no more sinister than the many many MANY references of God/religion that Bill Clinton, or Ronald Reagon, or Jimmy Carter used in political rhetoric.

And considering his Episcopal roots and current Methodist membership, I can say with much confidence that he is no fundamentalist and would view the Old Testament as containing some history, some allegory, some metaphor, some poetry, and some myth/legend/whimisical illustration as most mainstream Christians view it.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 05:28 am
fox

Your confidence is not shared.

It's unclear what Bush really thinks, for three sound reasons.

First, he lies ("I've made no decision to go to war", "We've found them [WOMD]", "We are turning over full and complete sovereignty to the Iraqis", etc etc).

Second, he commonly speaks to placate a large and important fundamentalist voting block. See here... http://slate.msn.com/id/1006378/

Third, there's no evidence, as the piece above notes, that Bush has either the intellectual curiosity or the educational prerequisites to have a sophisticated philosophy of religion at all.

We do know, from the statements of friends (PBS documentary we've all seen) that he holds one must be 'born again'. We also know that he's been quite happy to appoint fundamentalists to important positions (Attorney General), to forward policies internally and externally which hold to fundamentalist precepts (Olasky, funding to particular foreign aid programs eliminated or made contingent upon sex ed/abortion criteria, etc).

We do know that Bush holds notions of his own relative importance in a godly scheme of things (Woodward's book and elsewhere) which were certainly not voiced by the precedents you mention.

So, whether or not Bush matches your criteria for spotting a fundamentalist seems rather irrelevant.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 08:10 am
I found a huge, lumbering write-up about Fundamentalism, which says the term has been co-opted andmorphed to mean so many things to so many people--that the term is useless.

Some like to think Fundy's are a hoard of militant people, who are all embroiled in an attempt to change the world to their moral temperature. This, while used politically, is false. There are many Fundamentalists, who are quiet about their beliefs.

Of all the definitions shared-- this is the one I think is accurate:

Brief History of Christian fundamentalism
Within the United States, fundamentalism was originally a movement beginning in the late 19th century of Christian evangelical conservatives, who, in a reaction to modernism, insisted on adhering to a set of core beliefs. Fundamentalists, in this sense, have engaged in criticism of more liberal movements. The original formulation of American fundamentalist beliefs can be traced to the Niagara Bible Conference in 1878. In 1910, the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church distilled these into what were known as the "five fundamentals", which were:

Inerrancy of the Bible
The virgin birth and deity of Jesus Christ
The doctrine of substitutionary atonement
The bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ
The bodily second coming of Jesus Christ (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/non_fundamentalist_christianity/52921)

Its not so sinister.

And, using this definition, I think Bush is a Fundamentalist. You actually can't be born again, without this belief. These beliefs are the primary building blocks at the foundation of born-again Christianity.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 08:16 am
from the over $100 million dolled out under executive order (President Bush) for faith based initives, so far only applications from christian based organizations have been funded even though applications have been made by other faiths (jewish and muslim, specifically)
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 08:28 am
dys

Yes, that is from the PBS documentary. They noted that funds allocated are not easily traceable other than from one particular agency which keeps exact records. That statistic you note is is from that agency.

sofia

You repeat fox's wording...it isn't, you feel, 'sinister'. I don't think it is sinister either, as a belief system. But throw it into the political arena, and yes, it certainly could be. For all the many reasons already noted here on this thread.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 08:35 am
I was trying to finally find a universally accepted definition--and accurately answer the thread topic question.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 08:36 am
sofia

Sorry. Yes, you did weigh in with helpful data. I was sharpening my teeth and some old blood from yesterday got me going.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 08:54 am
<think yew>
<smiles>
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doglover
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 09:11 am
blatham wrote:
You repeat fox's wording...it isn't, you feel, 'sinister'. I don't think it is sinister either, as a belief system. But throw it into the political arena, and yes, it certainly could be. For all the many reasons already noted here on this thread.


Christian beliefs certainly aren't sinister. I do think that many Fundamentalist beliefs are extreme and are incredibly dangerous and have no place in the political arena.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 10:10 am
It is individual belief which is private that is in question. I still don't believe anyone can pronounce Bush fundamentalist or non-fundamentalist as we don't know how he feels personally about evolution and some of the more quaint and mythological sections of the Bible.
It doesn't matter what a particular sect teaches -- it's what he has personally absorbed. It is troublesome if he is making any decisions based on communicating directly with God or Jesus. I haven't seen any verifyable evidence of this.

Of course, if he were to somehow reveal tomorrow that he doesn't understand that a species of fish many millions of years developed legs and lungs or how and why the chimpanzee is so close to the homosapien species, and the earth is around 6000 years old, that's another story. The key is "inerrancy in the Bible."

BTW, Sofia, where did that definition come from?
I hope not Wikipedia.

Just like the law, there can be a belief in the letter of the Bible but there can merely be a belief in the spirit of the Bible, meaning that most of the Old Testament can be disregarded as fact or history and still considering it as a moral fable. It is a bit disconcerting that Jesus summarily endorsed the laws that came before him but one could debate just how many of those laws were in existance (one could also presume he also meant Roman law).
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 10:14 am
It is also erroneous to state that all the settlers who came to early America came here for religious freedom. In fact, only a small percentage came here for that reason -- the Puritans. The rest? Discovery, adventure, greed, escaping the law in England and many other non-religious reasons.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 11:04 am
Oh! It was Wikepedia. What's wrong with it? The five fundamental tenets are true to, at least, Baptist doctrine. May be so in other Christian denominations.

It did have quite a long blurb on the popularly accepted Fundy-As-Militant belief.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 11:18 am
Way down at the bottom of their home page is a small link "Disclaimer:"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:General_disclaimer
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mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 01:33 pm
Sofia wrote:
The original formulation of American fundamentalist beliefs can be traced to the Niagara Bible Conference in 1878. In 1910, the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church distilled these into what were known as the "five fundamentals", which were:

Inerrancy of the Bible
The virgin birth and deity of Jesus Christ
The doctrine of substitutionary atonement
The bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ
The bodily second coming of Jesus Christ (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/non_fundamentalist_christianity/52921)

Its not so sinister.

And, using this definition, I think Bush is a Fundamentalist. You actually can't be born again, without this belief. These beliefs are the primary building blocks at the foundation of born-again Christianity.


I have to disagree with you that "it is not so sinister", since included is a biggy, Inerrancy of the Bible . There is one hell of a lot of sinister nonsense in that book. To me that phrase means that the bible is without error. To subscribe to that concept in this day and age is evidence to me of a problem in reasoning ability not befitting a person in such a powerful position as President of the United States.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 01:44 pm
Quote:
Fundamentalism:
conservative movement in American Protestantism arising out of the millenarian movement of the 19th century and emphasizing as fundamental to Christianity the literal interpretation and absolute inerrancy of the Scriptures, the imminent and physical Second Coming of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Birth, Resurrection, and Atonement. Fundamentalism came into its own in the early 20th century in opposition to modernist tendencies in American religious and secular life. In the late 20th century the movement was represented by numerous church bodies, educational institutions, and special-interest organizations. See also evangelical church.


Origins.
The roots of fundamentalism are found in the history of the American millenarian movement. In the 1830s and '40s, much excitement was generated in the United States by expectations of the Second Advent of Christ and an ensuing thousand years of peace ("the millennium"). The initially scattered interest in the subject was concentrated and built into a movement largely through the Niagara Bible Conference. Initiated by James Inglis, a New York City Baptist minister, shortly before his death in 1872, the conference continued under James H. Brookes (1830-97), a St. Louis Presbyterian minister and editor of the influential millenarian periodical The Truth. Other early millenarian leaders included George C. Needham, a Baptist evangelist (1840-1902); William J. Erdman (1834-1923), a Presbyterian minister noted for his skill as a biblical expositor; and William R. Nicholson (1822-1901), who left the Episcopal church in 1873 and became a bishop in the Reformed Episcopal denomination.

Toward the close of the century, the movement attracted leaders such as the prominent Boston Baptist minister Adoniram J. Gordon (1836-95) and Maurice Baldwin (1836-1904), bishop of Huron in the Church of Canada. The group held annual summer conferences, which generally met at Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ontario, until 1899. The millenarians associated with the Niagara Conference also sponsored public conferences in major cities beginning in 1878, such as the Bible and Prophetic Conference in New York City.


Development of fundamentalist views.
The millenarian movement began to grow within America when confidence in America's destiny first began to wane among some Protestant leaders, faced as they were with labour unrest, social discontent, and the rising tide of Roman Catholic immigration. During the late 1880s and '90s the challenges posed by the rise of liberal Biblical criticism also won many converts to the millenarian movement.

As the century drew to a close, the Protestant evangelist Dwight L. Moody (1837-99) provided in his Northfield conferences an influential platform for millenarian expression. Millenarians supported foreign-missions work and influenced the surge of missionary zeal that was eventually institutionalized as the Student Volunteer Movement. Also, they found within the Princeton Theological Seminary at Princeton, N.J., a group of scholars interested in defending the authority and inspiration of the Bible.

Millenarians invited the Princeton professors to their conferences and adopted their arguments in defense of the Bible. Virtually none of the Princeton faculty adopted millenarianism, and some opposed it strongly, but both parties appreciated each other's support on the issue of biblical authority.

The high point of millenarian influence upon the conservative tradition within evangelical Protestantism occurred when millenarians cooperated with other defenders of the inerrancy of the Bible in founding the American Bible League in 1902 and in writing a series of 12 pamphlets entitled The Fundamentals. The pamphlets attacked the current theories of biblical criticism and reasserted the authority of the Bible, using the arguments developed at the Princeton Theological Seminary. The series was a summary of the previous generation's attempt to oppose biblical criticism and modernism through argument.

Almost all the leaders who had founded the Niagara Conference had died by 1914. The new generation of leaders were not as firmly attached to their denominations as were their predecessors. And their defense of the millenarian cause was more militant and uncompromising. During the last years of the 19th century, disagreements over prophetic interpretation were expressed, but James H. Brookes held the dissident factions together. Within a few years of his death, however, the Niagara Conference was abandoned, and shortly thereafter a paper war broke out between the two leading millenarian periodicals, Watchword and Truth and Our Hope, that deeply divided the movement.

The fundamentalist-modernist controversy. At the end of World War I, the millenarians, alarmed by the growth of liberalism and disturbed over what they conceived to be social degeneracy, held a number of conferences in New York City and Philadelphia that were successful enough to encourage the formation of a larger and more comprehensive organization in 1919, the World's Christian Fundamentals Association. As a result of this conference, the millenarian movement changed its name without changing its basic character. Furthermore, the 1919 conference placed planks in a platform on which the millenarian-fundamentalist movement would stand for the next 30 years.

The leaders reiterated the creedal basis of the movement, called for the exorcism of modernism and all its associated demons (especially evolution), practically abandoned the universities and placed their faith in the more recently founded Bible institutes, denounced the unitive and cooperative spirit exemplified in the Federal Council of the Churches of Christ in America, and threatened schism if this type of spiritual decline persisted. In spite of vigorous leadership, however, the association never prospered.

During the late 19th century, the liberal faction in the church had numbered only a few men, most of them professors in seminaries or universities. Their acceptance of higher criticism was viewed with apprehension by parishioners, the clergy, and officials of their denominations. Where legal machinery existed to examine the new teachings, as it did in the Presbyterian denomination, the verdict was given against the innovations of liberals.

Within a few decades, however, evidence for the new understanding of the Bible mounted and a new generation of seminarians had joined the liberal cause. By 1914, among the Episcopal, Methodist, Baptist, and Presbyterian denominations in the North, liberalism had gained many adherents. The battle to prevent the reception and spread of these new views had been lost. During the 1920s it only remained to be decided whether the liberals could be forced out of the denominations.

Not every Protestant denomination was affected by intellectual controversy during the 1920s, of course. In some, such as the Southern Baptist denomination, modernism had not yet become prominent. In others, such as the Methodist and Episcopal churches, modernism had gained many adherents; but the opposition did not become well enough organized to bring the issue to a focus.

Serious controversy did erupt, however, among the northern Baptists and the Presbyterians in the northern states. Within the Presbyterian church, conservatives had, with the help of the millenarians, imposed a set of essential doctrines upon the denomination in 1910, declaring the inerrant inspiration of the Bible, the Virgin Birth of Christ, and the Atonement (redemptive activity), Resurrection, and miracle-working power of Christ necessary to the Christian faith. In 1922, when a New York minister, Harry Emerson Fosdick, soon to become a leading modernist spokesman, protested the activities of millenarians in foreign-mission fields in a sermon entitled "Shall the Fundamentalists Win?" the conservatives and millenarians in the denomination were able to force Fosdick, who was a Baptist, out of his position as pastor of the First Presbyterian Church of New York City.

A withdrawal of the liberals had been the solution desired by millenarians and conservatives. To avoid a schism within the Presbyterian church in the United States, a Commission of Fifteen was appointed to work out a compromise. The report of the commission took the position that the Presbyterian denomination had traditionally tolerated a diversity of opinion and rejected the right of the General Assembly to determine which were the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. The report virtually destroyed the conservatives' position.

The focus of discord within the northern Baptist denomination was in their annual convention, which functioned much like the convention of a political party. Beginning in 1920, a group of Baptists calling themselves the National Federation of Fundamentalists began holding annual preconvention conferences on Baptist fundamentals. Thus organized, they attempted to carry their views into the convention. When the tactics of the National Federation failed to make immediate progress, some of the more militant Baptist fundamentalists founded the Baptist Bible Union. Among the Baptists, however, as among the Presbyterians, divisions among the fundamentalists caused their defeat.

Displeasure with the teaching of evolution, as well as anxiety over the spread of biblical criticism, gained momentum in the 1920s. Fundamentalists, believing that the Bible could not be reconciled with the view of the origin of life put forward by Charles Darwin, opposed evolution; but not every opponent of evolution was a fundamentalist. Antievolution crusaders lobbied for legislation to prevent the teaching of evolution in the public schools. Tennessee passed such a statute, which was challenged in the courts in 1925 at the instigation of the American Civil Liberties Union. John T. Scopes, a science teacher in the small town of Dayton, offered to serve as the defendant against the charge of having taught evolution. Two of the foremost public figures of that decade, William Jennings Bryan, a Presbyterian fundamentalist, and Clarence Darrow, a defense counsel in notable criminal trials, made headlines as the assistant prosecuting attorney and the defense attorney, respectively.


Institutional development.
During the 1930s and 1940s, fundamentalists gradually withdrew from conflict and from the national spotlight. During this period the institutional structure of modern fundamentalism developed. Some fundamentalist Presbyterians and Baptists broke away from their denominations to form new churches, such as the Presbyterians, led by J. Gresham Machen, who in 1936 formed the Presbyterian Church in America, or the Baptists, who left the Northern Baptist Convention to establish the General Association of Regular Baptists. Some remained within congregations of the larger denominations. But most fundamentalists joined a congregation of one of the smaller sects that had remained faithful to the creed of biblical literalism and premillennialism, such as the Christian and Missionary Alliance, the Plymouth Brethren, and the Evangelical Free Church, or one of the many independent Bible churches and tabernacles that arose during that period.

Much of the structure of modern fundamentalism is provided by Bible institutes and Bible colleges. Many of these schools, such as the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, Ill. or the Bible Institute of Los Angeles, Calif., in addition to teaching their students, publish periodicals, broadcast from their own radio stations, hold conferences, and maintain a staff of extension speakers. They operate very much like denominational headquarters, providing a bond between otherwise isolated congregations. In the arts and sciences the strongest bastion has long been Wheaton College, a scholarly college in a suburb of Chicago.

There is also a series of organizations for fundamentalists paralleling the professional and business organizations of American society. Doctors, scientists, athletes, social workers, historians, businessmen, nurses, students, and others may join groups designed especially for their interest or vocational area. Chapters of the Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship and Campus Crusade for Christ exist on hundreds of university and college campuses to provide religious support similar to that provided by organizations of the major Protestant denominations and Roman Catholics. The American Scientific Affiliation holds meetings and publishes a journal in which the compatibility of science with the Bible and with a Christian worldview is emphasized.

Paralleling the ecumenical bodies of Protestantism are the American Council of Christian Churches (ACCC) founded in 1941 and the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE) founded in 1942. The ACCC was (until 1969) virtually the voice of one man, Carl McIntire, who spoke against larger ecumenical bodies, such as the National Council of Churches, and against the alleged dangers of communism. The NAE operates as a coordinating body for its members but implements no programs of its own.

The most significant influences upon the fundamentalist and evangelical churches in America since World War II have been the prosperity of the postwar decades, the religious revival of the 1950s, and the alleged threat of communist subversion. The new public image of the fundamentalist during this period was perhaps best exemplified by the evangelist Billy Graham.

The issue of communism that preoccupied the American public during the 1950s closely resembled the traditional concerns of fundamentalism?-namely, biblical criticism and evolution?-which fundamentalists believed came from abroad, seemed to spread uncontrollably and subversively, and tended to undermine Christianity. The anticommunist activities of the mid-20th century virtually duplicated the history of the antievolution crusade of the 1920s. The evolution controversy itself resurfaced in the 1960s when creationists (those accepting literal interpretations of the biblical Creation account in Genesis), dismayed by the emphasis on evolutionary theory in biology textbooks, sought again to ban the teaching of evolution in the public schools. In the 1970s creationists campaigned for the mandatory teaching of Genesis whenever evolutionary theory was taught. This was followed by an attempt to mandate the teaching of so-called "creation science," or "scientific creationism," which presumed to present creationism and evolutionary theory as alternative scientific models. All of these movements were successfully challenged in the U.S. courts on constitutional grounds. The fundamentalist creationists gained some ground in conservative areas, and the issue generated a broader controversy concerning the rights of parents to determine what their children are taught. Also during this period the so-called Moral Majority, a fundamentalist citizens' organization under the leadership of Baptist minister Jerry Falwell of Virginia, crusaded against legalized abortion, homosexual rights, and the women's Equal Rights Amendment and crusaded for school prayer, increased defense spending, and a strong anticommunist foreign policy.

Fundamentalist beliefs have not changed significantly since the time of the Niagara conferences. The greatest theological excitement in the history of modern fundamentalism was generated by the theology of Karl Barth, whose emphasis on biblical authority was seen by many to reflect fundamentalist concerns.

Though fundamentalists are not notably ascetic, they do observe certain taboos. Most fundamentalists do not smoke or drink alcoholic beverages and usually do not dance or attend movies and plays. At most Bible institutes and fundamentalist colleges, these practices are strictly forbidden. Worship practices may vary from denomination to denomination but are usually nonliturgical and heavily influenced by revivalism. A sermon with congregational singing and prayer are common elements of fundamentalist services.

Ernest R. Sandeen

source: Fundamentalism. Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 31, 2004, from Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service.
<http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=36333>
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 02:39 pm
I could easily see where Bush has offered himself up as neither fish nor foul...er...fowl:

http://slate.msn.com/id/1006378/
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 04:13 pm
Well, I'm just an ignorant country boy (no, I'm not.) but if someone is asked who their favorite philosopher is and they answer 'Jesus Christ', you can pretty much bet the farm that you got yourself a fundamentalist Christian.

And when asked to explain what he means when he says "Jesus changed my heart." he stammers and explains that unless it's happened to you it's hard to understand, you can pretty much count on the guy's being part of the evangelical movement.

I usually smile, pretend to see someone I know across the room and beat it. Once I did ask a fellow what he thought a philosopher was and got a long, serious look before he answered " Someone trapped by the falseness of the world." which I thought was a good answer.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 04:27 pm
Is the Methodist church he belongs to part of the Evangelical Methodist sect? If he is not a dyed-in-the-wool fundamentalist he's certainly flirting with it. He's also a politician and so will probably keep us guessing.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 04:34 pm
"newsweek" magazine of 24 may 2004 has a lenghty and interesting article on: "the new prophets of revelation" (authors tim lahaye and jerry b jenkins) and why their biblical "left behind" novels have sold 62 million (yes, sixty-two milllion) copies and counting ! (has anyone on this thread read any of these novels ?). these authors are currently outselling stephen king, john grisham and every other pop novelist in america.here is a short statistic from the newsweek article :"what we believe" - a newsweek poll gauges americans' opinions on the "book of revelation" and "the end of times"; 36% believe that the book of revelation contains 'true prophecy'; 47% say it is metaphorical; 55% think that the faithful willbe taken up to heaven in the rapture; 74% of americans believe that satan exists, among evangelicals, the number increases to 93%; 17% believe that the end of the world will occur in their lifetime. ... i would be interested to know if similar information is available on the belief of europeans revelation theories. hbg
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