ROFL
Okay I'll go with that one.
Do you agree with George that those of us that do not profess a belief in Jesus are destined to hell?
I don't recall that George said that.
mesquite wrote:Do you agree with George that those of us that do not profess a belief in Jesus are destined to hell?
I'm no Bush fan, but that comment does deserve a reference.
Re: Is Bush a Fundmentalist Christian
doglover wrote:GW Bush is a chamelion. His views change depending on the audience he's playing to at the moment for support and votes.
As opposed to John "flip flop" Kerry?
The way the story goes, GWB turned to Christ at age 40. At that time, as many, maybe most, Christians are taught, accepting Christ gets one to heaven. And he made the public point that the door to heaven is open to Christians. Of course this was politically incorrect and also not stressed in the Methodist faith and Barbara called in Billy Graham to straighten George out.
George has matured in his faith since that time and his official position since that time when asked about this: "It is not the (governor's) (president's) duty to decide who goes to heaven."
Now compare that to John Kerry who, as a Roman Catholic, is bound to the Catholic catechism that salvation is available only via the Church and only Catholics make up the Church. Now John Kerry, I am almost certain, does not believe that nor do any Catholics (including a fair number of priests) that I know believe that. Nor do I believe Kerry supporters are holding him accountable for that particular catechism.
I would request, in the spirit of fairness, that you cut George Bush the same kind of slack.
Foxfyre wrote:George has matured in his faith since that time and his official position since that time when asked about this: "It is not the (governor's) (president's) duty to decide who goes to heaven."
I never heard him say that. Is that a direct quote? Where did you get that from?
I have to agree with kicky here, foxfyre, both yours and mesquite's quotes would benefit from a reference.
I heard George say that with my own ears here in New Mexico. (We're a battleground state so are blessed with occasional visits.)
The last place I remember seeing it written was in a Michael Kinsley column which, I believe, if I am remembering right, would back up both Mesquite's and my quotes. I'll try to find it.
There's also a book out there--I've only seen exerpts--The Faith of George W. Bush. Can't remember the author.
Hmm....and you don't think that might be partly political rhetoric? Both sides do it...
Please explain your comment Cav. I'm not sure what you mean.
Foxfyre wrote:I heard George say that with my own ears here in New Mexico. (We're a battleground state so are blessed with occasional visits.)
The last place I remember seeing it written was in a Michael Kinsley column which, I believe, if I am remembering right, would back up both Mesquite's and my quotes. I'll try to find it.
There's also a book out there--I've only seen exerpts--The Faith of George W. Bush. Can't remember the author.
I'll start with your original statement that you heard exactly what Bush said on these occasional visits to your 'battlefield state'. Even if you don't remember it all, it would be enlightening, and would strengthen your position if you could cite something from these visits. It will be tagged as 'observational evidence' and not 'proof', but whatever, that is the heart of debate. Never admit that you really don't know where the source came from. Bad...I shall slap you on the wrist for that. My own memory is horrible....don't depend on it, do the research and post the relevant quotes to defend your position, and find the author of any book you suggest. Well, nuff said, I like your style, but it needs some work. I speak as a non-partisan Canadian. :wink:
cavfancier wrote:I have to agree with kicky here, foxfyre, both yours and mesquite's quotes would benefit from a reference.
My reference is
Frontline "The Jesus Factor". The story is in
chapter 2. It does differ somewhat from Foxfyre's version. Barbara Bush was an Episcopalian, Laura was the Methodist. George expressed the belief that the
only way to get to heaven was by accepting Jesus Christ. Barbara believed in just doing what was right and not to worry about it. To settle the disagreement,
the family called up Billy Graham for his opinion. He sided with Barbara. George still personally believed that that the
only way was through Jesus Christ. Because the political ramifications of that were huge, he does not talk about that anymore.
Good mesquite....awaiting foxfyre's references.
Foxfyre wrote:George has matured in his faith since that time and his official position since that time when asked about this: "It is not the (governor's) (president's) duty to decide who goes to heaven."
The fact that he now weasles out of a direct answer is not evidence that he has "matured in his faith", whatever that means, or changed his belief.
In all due respect Mesquite, you cannot say that he is weaseling out of anything either because you simply do not know. You only know what you seem to wish to believe about him. If you think it offensive if a president should presume to judge others, how about not judging?
George Bush is on the record that he is a Christian. If that alone is offensive to some, then don't vote for him. But if you don't vote for him for that reason alone, you better plan to stay home on election day because guess what. John Kerry is on the record that he is a Christian too. I don't know about Nader so I guess he is possibly a way out of the dilemma of voting for somebody who professes a religious faith.
Foxfyre wrote:In all due respect Mesquite, you cannot say that he is weaseling out of anything either because you simply do not know. You only know what you seem to wish to believe about him. If you think it offensive if a president should presume to judge others, how about not judging?
George Bush is on the record that he is a Christian. If that alone is offensive to some, then don't vote for him. But if you don't vote for him for that reason alone, you better plan to stay home on election day because guess what. John Kerry is on the record that he is a Christian too. I don't know about Nader so I guess he is possibly a way out of the dilemma of voting for somebody who professes a religious faith.
Calm down. We are not talking about being offended or judging. My entry in the current discussion began with a reply to this quote from you.
Foxfyre wrote:And I think the only way anyone could get the impression that GWB is a fundamentalist is to want that to be the case so passionately that all evidence to the contrary is ignored.
Okay gang - here's some sources for you. Draw from them what you will.
Here's some reading material people - all available through Barnes & Noble and other major booksellers:
Faith of George W. Bush Stephen Mansfield Bush Country: How Dubya Became a Great President While Driving Liberals Insane John Podhoretz A Man of Faith: The Spiritual Journey of George W. Bush David Aikman God and Ronald Reagan: A Spiritual Life Paul Kengor Ten Minutes from Normal Karen Hughes
Here is the Kinsley article. (I do NOT agree with Kinsley of course, but the quotes I remembered are there.)
http://slate.msn.com/id/32438/
Here's another good article from the Christian Science Monitor giving a fair assessment of the views on this:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p01s03-uspo.html?related
And this bit from Frontline Athiest:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/bushframe.htm
And this one:
http://www.familypolicy.net/features/bush700.shtml
