U.S. General Suspended Over Iraqi Prisoner Abuse

actually I don't think that the degree of isolation matters much, the photos are, by now, universal in coverage and it's the image conveyed that really matters. the image copnveyed is a very, very bad one. I am also sure, from my own experiences, that the number of incidences is not significant, at least it was not in Southeast Indo-China, but the visage by the international community is highly significant. i do believe this is an overt "we lost this one" and it's time to take our lumps and move on regardless the cost to our national ego.

I've heard several times that the photos are fraudulant for several reason; 1) rifle is the wrong make and model used in Iraq, 2) the truck fence doesn't match what's being used in Iraq, and 3) the source of the photo. Anybody else hear about this?

Is that print media? I actually had a hard time finding them (but I don't watch TV).

c.i. the controversy about authenticity of the photos is in regard to the ones depicting the English soldiers, not the ones from the prison (the ones being disputed are the brit soldiers urinating on Iraqis).

There are some unexplained inconsistencies, but the English photos haven't been debunked just yet.

The American ones are not disputed, the people in the photos have been talking about them and admitting to those acts under oath.

Craven, Thanks for bringing me up to date.

What I don't understand is why MGM and tarantulaes assume because we are discussing the event, we are gleeful and smug about people being abused just so we can rub it in the people who are for the occupation faces. Personally I am offended by the implied accusation.

I don't like seeing it on TV either. Yesterday I was flipping through the channels and run across fox with a huge image of the prisoners in that pose where they are naked. I thought to myself, what a sight for children to see.

I don't think anything will be done except those that were caught will probably get in some kind of trouble. In other words I don't think there will any kind of objective investigation to see if that kind of abuse was encouraged by the higher ups as a way of intimidation.

I just hope and pray that John Kerry wins the election so that we at least have a chance of cleaning up this occupation mess. I agree with with that guy said in the article that pistoff posted, we should go our knees and humbly beg the international community to take over completely for the sake of the Iraqi people and their country.

The Iraq prisoner artocities are front page fodder on every paper in the UK, as well it should be in my view.

This polly-anna take on the occupying US and UK military junta is jsut delusional and people must understand why Iraqis so loathe the Americans and the British.

Pentagon Examined Iraq Detention Centers
Pentagon Examined Iraq Detention Centers
May 4, 10:14 AM (ET)
By ROBERT BURNS

WASHINGTON (AP) - The U.S. military did a "top-level review" last fall of how its detention centers in Iraq were run, months before commanders first were told about the sexual humiliation and abuse of Iraqis that has created an international uproar, a Pentagon official said.

Larry Di Rita, the top spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, said Monday the review was done at the request of Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the senior American commander in Iraq.

Di Rita did not say what prompted the review. He said it "drew certain conclusions," which later were taken into account by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who began an investigation on Jan. 31 focused on an unidentified soldier's report of prisoner mistreatment at Abu Ghraib prison.

That second probe led to findings of blatant and sadistic abuse by U.S. military police and perhaps others. It has drawn wide condemnation, particularly with the publication of photos documenting the mistreatment.

The chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Sen. John Warner, R-Va., summoned Army officials to face his panel Tuesday and answer questions about the probe.

Republican Sen. Susan Collins of Maine said she fears that photos depicting Iraqi prisoners in U.S. custody apparently being sexually humiliated and physically abused, which have been widely broadcast on TV, could incite more violence against American troops in Iraq.

But an attorney for a military police officer being investigated in the abuse probe, said on NBC's "Today" show that the photographs of the Iraq prisoners that have inspired widespread revulsion "were obviously staged" in order to manipulate the prisoners into cooperating with intelligence officials.

"They were part of the psychological manipulation of the prisoners being interrogated," said Guy Womack, attorney for Charles A. Graner, Jr., a Greene County, Pa. corrections officer who was activated to the military in March 2003 and served at Abu Ghraib.

"It was being controlled and devised by the military intelligence community and other governmental agencies, including the CIA," Womack said. The soldiers, he said, were simply "following orders."

In Geneva, meanwhile, the U.N.'s top human rights official, Bertrand Ramcharan, added his voice to the chorus of those condemning the abuses. "Such incidents should be investigated and those responsible brought to justice swiftly," Ramcharan said.

Di Rita did not disclose the earlier review's findings, and he said he could not disclose what Taguba found because his report is classified secret and is under review by senior officials.

He provided a timeline of the military's response to the reported abuse at Abu Ghraib. He said it first came to the attention of commanders in Iraq when an unidentified soldier reported it to his superiors on Jan. 13. The next day, Sanchez ordered a criminal investigation, and since then four other probes have begun, Di Rita said.

The only one of the five dealing directly with the role of military intelligence officials in prisoner operations was opened April 23 by a senior Army intelligence official, Di Rita said. The rest deal more broadly with prison operations or the role of military police.

President Bush on Monday urged Rumsfeld to quickly get to the bottom of the Abu Ghraib scandal and to ensure that American soldiers found guilty of misbehavior are appropriately punished.

Bush, in an interview Monday with The Detroit News, the Detroit Free Press and Booth Newspapers, said he had been "shaken" by the reports of prisoner abuse "because I know that this doesn't reflect the values of our country."

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Tuesday that Bush first became aware of the allegations of abuse some time after the Pentagon began looking into it but did not see the pictures until they were made public and did not learn of the classified Pentagon report until news organizations reported its existence.

Sens. Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., and Jeff Bingaman, N.M., said the concern goes beyond the actions of a few soldiers.

"There is a bigger issue here," Hagel said Tuesday on NBC's "Today.""Was there an environment, a culture that not only condoned this, but encouraged this kind of behavior? We need to look well beyond just the soldier. Who was in charge? Was there a breakdown in command here? ... We need to understand all the dynamics of this."

In early February, the Army inspector general began a review of U.S. detention facilities throughout Iraq and Afghanistan, at about the time the chief of the Army Reserve, Lt. Gen. James R. Helmly, began an assessment of training for his MPs and military intelligence personnel, Di Rita said.

Di Rita said repeatedly that he could provide no information about allegations that private contractors were involved in the abusive situation at the Abu Ghraib prison.

The criminal investigation of the Abu Ghraib case was completed on March 15, Di Rita said. On March 20, criminal charges were filed against six military police officers. As many as three of the six cases have been referred to military trial, and others are in various stages of preliminary hearings, officials said.

In addition to the criminal cases, seven others - all military police officers - have been given noncriminal punishment. In six of the cases, they got letters of reprimand. It was unclear whether others, including those in military intelligence, will face disciplinary action. The names of the seven have not been made public.

perhaps it's because the current leadership is sooooo passionate about presenting themselves as compassionate liberators operating from direct suggestion from no less a figure than Jesus Christ

Abuse story a blow to U.S. claims of moral high ground
If you stop and think about when the Iraqi population started their armed counter-attack against their "liberators" it was at about the same time that the military first "officially" learned about the abuse-torture of Iraqi prisioners---but covered it up. The Iraqi public obviously knew about some of the torture and its reported that the information spread among them. Is there a connection? I don't know, but the coincidence is troubling. ---BBB

Abuse story a blow to U.S. claims of moral high ground
Courtesy of the New Yorker
Associated Press
May. 3, 2004 12:07 PM

WASHINGTON - The reported abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers threatens to undermine part of President Bush's rationale for unseating Saddam Hussein: that the United States had ended a regime that was torturing and abusing Iraqis.

The disclosures undermine American claims to a moral high ground as the United States tries to put down a growing insurgency and gain international support in Iraq.

"Saddam Hussein encouraged and tolerated this kind of behavior - the U.S. does not," Bush spokesman Scott McClellan said Monday, reporting that the president had called Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld to make sure any guilty soldiers are punished.

Even so, the allegation of mistreatment of prisoners "makes the U.S. and coalition forces a legitimate enemy in the eyes of more Arabs than was the case before," said Anthony Cordesman, an expert on Middle East security issues at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

"Anything short of a court-martial of general officers will be seen throughout the region as a cover-up."

The latest setback to U.S. efforts in Iraq comes as the administration passes an embarrassing landmark - the first anniversary of Bush's "mission accomplished" speech - and just two months before the United States is to turn over civilian authority to a new Iraqi interim government.

It also comes as the United States attempts to encourage more international participation in establishing a stable Iraq, particularly by Arab nations, and as the Justice Department gathers evidence for a war crimes case against Saddam and other senior members of his government.

The worldwide circulation of photos showing U.S. soldiers humiliating and abusing Iraqi prisoners at the U.S. Army-run Abu Ghraib prison has further stoked international disapproval of the U.S. and British occupation.

"This has been a very difficult period. I don't think it is too late for us to get this right, but I don't think we have a lot of time to turn this around," said Sandy Berger, President Clinton's national security adviser.

Thus far, U.S. officials have condemned the prisoner treatment as an aberration. Bush expressed "deep disgust." Secretary of State Colin Powell told reporters on Monday that U.S. soldiers "are there to help, not to hurt."

"The actions of a few, I trust, will not overwhelm the goodness that comes from so many of our soldiers," Powell said.

More U.S. soldiers were being reprimanded, a senior U.S. military official said Monday in Baghdad. Six U.S. military police were already facing charges.

The allegations could reinforce to the world an image of mistreatment of detainees following the Sept. 11 terror attacks, including the continued holding of 600 on a U.S. base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

"This just reconfirms an image that we are not treating prisoners the way that civilized people should," said Ivo Daalder, a foreign policy analyst at the Brookings Institution. "We need a full court press by the administration to demonstrate that this is unacceptable behavior, that if it happened people will be punished, that if it is taking place that it will stop."

Amnesty International, a London-based human-rights group, alleged a monthslong "pattern of torture" of Iraqi prisoners by coalition troops, and called for an independent investigation. A leading association of Iraqi Sunni Muslim clerics called for an international investigation. And Iraq's interior minister demanded an Iraqi role in the running of all prisons.

Public opinion about Iraq has been changing in the United States.

Recent polls show the country is now close to evenly divided between those who think the administration made the right decision to go to war in Iraq and those who think the war was a mistake. In December, two-thirds said the administration made the right decision.

Former human rights minister told Bremer about Iraq detainee
Former human rights minister told Bremer about Iraq detainee abuse
Mon May 3

BAGHDAD (AFP) - Former Iraqi human rights minister Abdel Basset Turki said US overseer Paul Bremer knew in November that Iraqi prisoners were being abused in US detention centres.

"In November I talked to Mr Bremer about human rights violations in general and in jails in particular. He listened but there was no answer. At the first meeting, I asked to be allowed to visit the security prisoners, but I failed," Turki told AFP on Monday.

"I told him the news. He didn't take care about the information I gave him." The coalition had no immediate comment about Turki's meeting with Bremer.

The minister, whose resignation was formally accepted by the coalition on Sunday, said he told Bremer about his meetings with former detainees.

"The prisoners I spoke to, they told me about how Iraqi prisoners were left in the sun on US bases for hours, prevented to pray and wash and left for two days on a chair and kicked at Abu Gharib," he said.

That was a reference to the largest prison in the country, located outside Baghdad, where a US Army enquiry found guards humiliated detainees, forced them to strip naked and perform mock fellatio and other sexual activities.

Since January, 17 people have been implicated in the scandal, including the general who ran the prison system in Iraq. Pictures of the abuse obtained by media outlets last week have caused outrage around the world.

But Turki said he had not been aware of the activities uncovered in the US Army probe when he met Bremer.

That enquiry was initiated after a US soldier in the prison stepped forward and informed the army's Criminal Investigation Division some time after November 1.

The top US commander in Iraq, Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, then ordered a full criminal and administrative investigation that led to the suspension of 17 soldiers and officers.

A third investigation is now examining whether intelligence officers or civilian contractors encouraged the abuse to weaken prisoners ahead of interrorgations.

Turki said he had also raised concerns about prisoner abuse to the International Committee of the Red Cross, but they refused to share information with him.

Turki resigned from his post on April 8 in anger over the US military offensives on Najaf and Fallujah and it was officially accepted Sunday by the coalition, the human rights ministry said Monday.

The US-dominated CPA has cited human rights as a motivating factor in the invasion last spring to oust the authoritarian regime of Saddam Hussein.

The coalition demanded human rights protections be inserted into the transitional law that is expected to govern Iraq until a permanent constitution is drafted by the end of 2005.

But the scenes of intense street fighting when US forces assaulted Fallujah on April 5, in a hunt for insurgents who brutally murdered four US contractors, triggered revulsion among pro-coalition Iraqis.

Ritz: Humiliation is part of interrogation
Ritz: Humiliation is part of interrogation
Tuesday, May 4, 2004
Former Army interrogator Mike Ritz
The U.S. has formally reprimanded 6 soldiers involved in alleged abuse.

(CNN) -- A former Army interrogator who now owns Team Delta, a company whose most popular course is Prisoner of War Interrogation/Resistance Training, says the photos showing abuse of Iraqi prisoners indicate a "classic prison guard syndrome."

Mike Ritz talked about methods and danger signs with CNN anchor Anderson Cooper.

COOPER: One of the charges that has been put toward the six members of the military police who are currently facing charges is that they were asked to "soften up" these prisoners for later interrogation. Does that actually work?

RITZ: I think what you're looking at is these terms are very vague, aren't they? And you can take them for what they're worth. Geneva Convention doesn't outline exactly how to treat prisoners. It's a very vague term. So it's kind of up to the leadership to determine what "softening up" means.

But I think the MPs, one of the great assets we have in military police is that they can be our eyes and ears when the interrogation element isn't present.

As far as abusing the prisoners, this isn't allowed. It can't happen.

COOPER: But the people who are defending these MPs say look, these are -- in some cases one was a private. They're pretty low-level officers if they're officers at all. They're not the ones coming up with these techniques, in their defense their lawyers are going to argue, look, somebody told them to do this.

Let's talk about these techniques. I mean, what is the technique of having prisoners naked? Of having a prisoner wear women's underwear? I know it may not be exactly legal, but is there some sort of method to it?

RITZ: Well, I mean, humiliation has been used in the interrogation process for quite some time. But, in this case, what you're looking at is some people that went to extremes. And I think that shows the immaturity of those people involved. And the lack of having any sort of standard operating procedures as far as what they can and can't do.

COOPER: So how do you try to use humiliation?

RITZ: Well, there are other ways to do it. I mean every prisoner has to go through a strip search, for example. Now an interrogator can be present at that strip search, and that can be a humiliating experience for the individual.

Can an interrogator put their hands on them? When an interrogator starts to show emotion in this process, when they start to look like they're having a good time, and there's joy, I mean I think that's when we know we have a serious problem here. It's a maturity issue. It's a lack of experience...

COOPER: And a lack of oversight it would seem to be, as well.

I'm interested in this notion of humiliation. What does it do, specifically what does it do to the prisoner? What is the purpose of it from the interrogator's point?

RITZ: You're making a prisoner feel vulnerable and letting -- you know getting the prisoner to have his guard down.

Now what we could have done that would have been more acceptable from Geneva Convention standard is we could have had a female behind a sheet while prisoners were going through the strip search and she could have been making comments, but never having truly viewed the prisoner.

And that could have been a humiliating experience that, in my eyes would have been an acceptable way to create that vulnerability in the prisoner so that they would cooperate.

COOPER: Did it surprise you, seeing these pictures, obviously these individuals, things went too far. Whether or not it was a systematic policy, we don't know.

There was sort of a sexual nature to all of these, not only in the pictures, but a lot of the allegations about some of the other things that were going on in this prison. Does that surprise you, the sort of sexual component to it?

RITZ: Yes, I mean, I think what you're really looking at is a classic "Prison Guard Syndrome."

There was an experiment in 1971 that Stanford University did in the psychology department. They took students, half of them were made guards in a mock prison and the other half were made prisoners.

It was supposed to take place for the period of two weeks to see what was the psychology involved in that and within six days they cut it short, because those students, regular college students, were already starting to behave in a bit of a sadistic manner toward those prisoners. So they had to end the study altogether.

This thing happens if you do not have the proper monitoring and supervision going on. Or you don't have seasoned interrogators.

I think the good remedy for this situation would be to bring in some seasoned interrogators that aren't involved in the interrogation process but can assist with the overview, along with a psychiatrist or a psychiatric team that not only analyzed what's going on with the prisoners themselves mentally, but they're also looking at what's going on with the staff in dealing with the prisoners.

Because it's very natural for this type of thing to happen.

BumbleBee:

This is very disturbing and suggests Paul Bremer has left himself open for human rights violations at the World Court in The Hague.

I heard shortly after Guantanamo filled up with thousands of sheep herders and rural farmers after the start of the Afghanistan War that many of these men had been placed in a military cargo air transport plane, chained down and interior fuselage had not been heated.

Those that survived the 14 hour flight to Cuba, tried to get the word of their ordeal out to anyone who would listen, but they encountered obstacles along the way at the hands of their American captures.

If this is true, little wonder the US has gone to such peculiar lengths to prevent these men from seeing an attorney.

You know what they say, you're only as sick as your secrets.

As far as I remember, only states can be ruled at the "International Court of Justice" (aka 'World Court').
(Quite different to the 'European Court of Human Rights'!)

Besides, this really would be just a matter of US-justice.

Call in Judge Judy if you wish. Paul Bremer is protected by those around him and won't even be reprimanded for his lax behavior.

Speaking Tuesday, the lawyer for one of the US soldiers accused of abusing prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad said that his client and others were following orders and that responsibility for any abuses rested with the military and civilian intelligence officers who were in command. Houston lawyer Guy Womack, representing Charles Graner, a reservist with a military police unit, also said that the photographs of Iraqi prisoners were staged as a part of psychological manipulation.

SOURCE

Walter:

You've got to be kidding?

I mean, how else would you expect the spouses of the accused soldiers to react?

This is hardly newsworthy.

No, it wasn't me but Reuters (et. al. by now), who published this.

Yes, plenty of hypocrisy on show, wherever you look in this.

Tony Blair on the BBC today: "This behaviour is quite unacceptable and beyond the pale."

That's right, Tony, you can't beat a thief with rifle butts and piss on him, but it's okay to bomb and shoot civilians in an illegal "war", maiming and killing thousands. Is that what you mean?

I heard today on the drive home the entire press briefing with Rumsfeld and the Washington press corp was taken up with the story of the Iraqi prisoner atrocities.

It's now being referred to as the even George Bush and Karl rove can't spin away.