yeah, that was the part that annoyed me most too. they haven't READ IN THE BOOK that connecting electrodes to genitals of prisoners is not nice????
Oh, my, but then it's okay, they should have give them this book, it's not their fault.
inforwarrior, the only reason (besides just not like violent pornographic pictures) that I felt that showing those pictures so much is because it just seems to me to be disrespectful to the detainees who have already been humiliated around the world enough. They are human beings that are in those pictures. However, you may be right, that it is more important to get the truth out. In other words I have said enough on the subject.
I think any all involved both the ones in charge of the whole military who should have known what was going on and the ones in charge at the prison are equally as responsible as those that committed the acts.
It is serious and should taken as such. We are not exploiting anything by talking about it, human abuse has taken place and it would be wrong to just shrug and just punish those that committed the acts and chalk it up as the acts that people commit while under stress of war. Like I said, if it is was only physical violence (though that would be horrible too) then maybe stress could be to blame, but this is something entirely different.
Well, I am not an expert on war but a couple of things here.
1. Bush said major combat was over a year ago, so just what the hell are we still doing in Iraq?
2. Isn't such behavior illegal under the Geneva Convention?
3. One of the sadists committing these atrocities is a woman. For this, my heart is heavy.
Deecups36 wrote:? 3. One of the sadists committing these atrocities is a woman. For this, my heart is heavy.
And no wonder, with a name like deecups 36.
Seriously, girls.......you've come a long way baby. Welcome to the party. Now some of you are sadistic scumbags too. Price of admission to the big game. It is sad.
Price of admission to the big game.
Sounds to me like this military witch is one of those dames who wishes she were a man. If you get Deecup's drift.
BBB
We are confronted with the great moral question during war, any war. Is torture justified when the information sought could save the lives of our side's troops and even civilian populations?
The hypocrisy in Iraq is that we despised Saddam because some of his infamny was that he tortured his own people.
Then there is the question of the type of torture. Using sophisticated drugs to obtain information is one thing. Physical torture is another.
For example, in Moslem countries, the worst thing that can be done to a woman is to rape her. That act results in a life-long torture of unacceptance by society.
When is torture acceptable? Is it ever?
BBB
When is torture acceptable? Is it ever?
A great question Bee. If the USA is going to engage in such rogue behavior then we have no business telling the world we're better, and we have no business as a signatory to the Geneva convention.
This is moral hypocrisy.
I was left bloody & bruised. Now we've become the tortur
I was left bloody and bruised. Now we've become the torturers
In the 1991 Gulf war John Nichol, an RAF navigator, was shot down over Iraq, beaten up and paraded on TV. He gives his reaction to the images of allied brutality
Sunday May 2, 2004
The Observer
They are the images I thought I would never have to see again, sickening pictures of Iraqi prisoners, naked, tortured and humiliated. Surely liberation from Saddam Hussein's brutal, evil regime had seen an end to all of that? Yet here they are, photographs of American soldiers abusing prisoners in Iraq's notorious Abu Ghraib's dungeon and of British servicemen brutalising captives in Basra.
They have sent shock waves around the world and shivers down my spine. During the Gulf war in 1991, I was shot down over Iraq, taken prisoner, tortured, humiliated and paraded on TV in pictures that provided an enduring image of that war. Now, perhaps, these horrific new pictures from Iraq will be the lasting image of so-called liberation.
I was held at Abu Ghraib prison during my ordeal as a POW. It was a place of monstrous cruelty and unspeakable brutality; at times the screams of men and women echoed around the bare cell blocks and I would try to bury myself under my single, lice-infested blanket to block out the noise.
On one occasion etched in my memory the guards came crashing into my cell. Blows rained down on me from all sides and I fell to the floor under a merciless avalanche of abuse. I clearly remember watching the blood drip from my nose and form pools in the dust of the cell. At one point a guard pointed a gun at my head and told me he was going to kill me, he pulled the trigger but the hammer fell on an empty barrel; he had removed the bullets as part of his game.
That was all 13 years ago in a different Iraq, and to be honest I expected that sort of treatment, I knew how brutal the regime could be and that I could expect no mercy once in its grasp.
But it is all meant to be over now. Last year America, with Britain at its side, went to war to put an end to such brutality. The Iraqi people are meant to be liberated from a regime that ignores the rules of war, that knows no bounds in its cruel, degrading treatment of prisoners. Which is why these shocking, horrific images of soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners are almost too evil to comprehend. Naked prisoners are sexually abused while an American female soldier looks on in laughter and palpable pleasure. A British soldier urinates on a man who has been beaten and abused. These are the images I thought I would never see again. The criminal acts of a few bring shame and disgrace to all of the allied forces in Iraq. This is the sort of evil deed perpetrated on myself and the other allied POWs in 1991. We are meant to have rescued the Iraqis from that, we are meant to be above this degradation.
It may be that the abusers are simply a few rotten apples poisoning the whole military barrel and I have no doubt that the vast majority of British and American troops are doing their job as best they can in incredibly trying conditions. But the episode has done untold damage to the allied forces in Iraq and the backlash from the civilian population could be catastrophic.
The military battle to topple Saddam Hussein's evil regime and free the Iraqi people from oppression was won more than a year ago. But these sickening pictures show that there is still a long way to go to win the trust and respect of the Iraqi population.
-------------------------------------------------
ยท John Nichol was a POW during the 1991 Gulf war, and is now a writer and broadcaster. He is co-author, with Tony Rennell, of 'The Last Escape - The Untold Story of Allied POWs 1944-45', published by Penguin.
problem is BBB that in this case I am completely sure that majority of prisoners were not even in position to know something that could save lives in matter you are mentioning (of course, I understand that you don't think torture of this kind can be approved) - they were simply torturing them for "fun".
And, as for your moral question - is torture ever acceptable? That's actually tough one. This kind is not, for sure. But some other kinds, maybe. If you are dealing with complete lunatic, someone extremely dangerous, then maybe it is...it's hard call anyway. But if, for example, you know that some terrorist group put wire bomb on one venue of Athens Olympic Games, and every single day there are tens of thousands of spectators on dozens and dozens of venues - and then you happen to capture terrorist that you have all reasons to believe that he knows location of bomb, well, in that case torturing is acceptable. Or, if not acceptable, it's less wrong choice.
But, as you mentioned, today there are sophisticated drugs that can make someone speak. So, there is no single case where torturing like one in this sad and shamefull example is acceptable.
Especially not in cases like this one.
What I am hoping will be investigated, and in actuality will probably be sidestepped, is that it looks like this was something that was instigated as policy from the very top, not the actions of six lower enlisted pukes. I think this says something very frightening about our government! In addition, the "civillian contractors" came from a company associated with Halliburton. That is also disturbing. The amount of power this corporation has should chill teh souls of every American citizen.
Actually, the "responsibility" goes all the way to the top; president bush. But we all know by now that this president and administration doesn't admit wrong or making mistakes. Oh well, another day, another dead.
Abuse
U.S.: No Widespread Abuse in Iraq Prisons
WASHINGTON -
Quote:Top U.S. military officer Gen. Richard Myers said Sunday there is no widespread pattern of abuse of Iraqi prisoners and that the actions of "just a handful" of U.S. troops at a Baghdad prison have unfairly tainted all American forces.
An internal Army report found that Iraqi detainees were subjected to "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses" at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, according to The New Yorker magazine, which said it obtained a copy of the report.
~snip~
The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said "categorically" that "there is no evidence of systematic abuse" in the U.S. detention operations in the region.
"We review all the interrogation methods. Torture is not one of the methods that we're allowed to use and that we use," Myers said. "I mean, it's just not permitted by international law, and we don't use it."
~snip~
much more:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=542&e=2&u=/ap/20040502...
US Forces restrict Red Cross access in Iraq
Quote:This is from the International Red Cross's web site.
It appears US Forces have restricted their access to some of the prisons and camps for quite some time.
Based on its humanitarian mandate defined by the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions, the ICRC visits detainees - prisoners of war and civilians - in all major detention places under the authority of the Occupying Power. Family visits to detainees are only authorized in some prisons and camps, which means that for many detainees and their families Red Cross messages offer the only possibility to send a sign of life.
http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList322/02BD49A599DE9593C1 ...
* The US Army in Iraq had these photos for well over 8 months.
Why did they finally release them?
CIA
CIA accused of link to Iraq prison torture
Quote:
A US Army Reserve general whose soldiers were photographed as they abused Iraqi prisoners said she knew nothing about the abuse until weeks after it occurred and that she was "sickened" by the pictures. Brigadier-General Janis Karpinski said she suspected the reservists were acting with the encouragement of military intelligence units that ran the special cell block used for interrogation and that CIA employees often joined in the interrogations.
General Karpinski's allegations are supported by a still-classified US Army report on prison conditions in Iraq documenting many of the worst abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison, west of Baghdad, including the sexual humiliation of prisoners.
The magazine The New Yorker says in its latest issue that the report, by Major-General Antonio Taguba, found that military police at the prison were urged by officers and CIA agents to "set physical and mental conditions for favourable interrogation of witnesses". According to the magazine, the army report offered accounts of gruesome abuse that included the sexual assault of an Iraqi detainee with a chemical light stick or broomstick.
In a phone interview in which she offered her first public comments about the episode, General Karpinski, who is still the commanding officer of the 800th Military Police Brigade, said the special high-security cell block at Abu Ghraib had been under the direct control of army intelligence officers, not the reservists under her command.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/02/1083436475631.html
* Who is the USA Commander In Chief?
May be fake pictures? If they are, somebody is a sicko.
Turantulas
Are you trying to say with that ad that the Arabs hated us before the abuse and that they hate us now and so therefore the abuse should be just dismissed or what?
I found an interesting article on yahoo this morning from a released prisoner. Some of what he says may or may not be true, but the interesting part is where he said at first he was glad that the Americans got rid of Saddam Hussien and viewed us as liberators, but now he says that we are worse than Saddam Hussien because at least all he done was beat and torure them physically while the Americans beat and humilate them (in his words) turn them into women.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040503/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prisoner_abuse&cid=540&ncid=716
The six US soldiers have been reprimanded over abuses against Iraqis held at Abu Ghraib jail, say US military officials today.
Another six soldiers at the jail are already under criminal investigation over alleged abuses against inmates.
I sincerely think - whatever they may get or if they get nothing at all - they did an immense damage to the credibility that the US want to be bring democracy and freedom.
At least, in most other countries people have a different understanding of it.
(I know, it just have been some dozens of soldiers; this can happen always and everywhere; it's exactly, what Arabs should get, the soldiers didn't know about the existence of the Geneva Convention; better this than living under Saddam; .....)
!
This abuse. humiliation, torture even murder is not so isolated and has been going on for quite a while.
I get this feeling that Tarantulas finds all of this amusing. Maybe he would be one of those that would be humiliating prisoners were he in one the US Prison gaurds in Iraq?
