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U.S. General Suspended Over Iraqi Prisoner Abuse

 
 
MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 05:14 am
yeah, that was the part that annoyed me most too. they haven't READ IN THE BOOK that connecting electrodes to genitals of prisoners is not nice????
Oh, my, but then it's okay, they should have give them this book, it's not their fault.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 06:21 am
inforwarrior, the only reason (besides just not like violent pornographic pictures) that I felt that showing those pictures so much is because it just seems to me to be disrespectful to the detainees who have already been humiliated around the world enough. They are human beings that are in those pictures. However, you may be right, that it is more important to get the truth out. In other words I have said enough on the subject.

I think any all involved both the ones in charge of the whole military who should have known what was going on and the ones in charge at the prison are equally as responsible as those that committed the acts.

It is serious and should taken as such. We are not exploiting anything by talking about it, human abuse has taken place and it would be wrong to just shrug and just punish those that committed the acts and chalk it up as the acts that people commit while under stress of war. Like I said, if it is was only physical violence (though that would be horrible too) then maybe stress could be to blame, but this is something entirely different.
0 Replies
 
Deecups36
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 07:03 am
Well, I am not an expert on war but a couple of things here.

1. Bush said major combat was over a year ago, so just what the hell are we still doing in Iraq?

2. Isn't such behavior illegal under the Geneva Convention?

3. One of the sadists committing these atrocities is a woman. For this, my heart is heavy.
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 07:27 am
Deecups36 wrote:
? 3. One of the sadists committing these atrocities is a woman. For this, my heart is heavy.


And no wonder, with a name like deecups 36.

Seriously, girls.......you've come a long way baby. Welcome to the party. Now some of you are sadistic scumbags too. Price of admission to the big game. It is sad.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 08:42 am
U.S. soldiers brutalized Iraqis. Who is responsible?
TORTURE AT ABU GHRAIB
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
American soldiers brutalized Iraqis. How far up does the responsibility go?
Issue of 2004-05-10
Posted 2004-04-30

In the era of Saddam Hussein, Abu Ghraib, twenty miles west of Baghdad, was one of the world's most notorious prisons, with torture, weekly executions, and vile living conditions. As many as fifty thousand men and women?-no accurate count is possible?-were jammed into Abu Ghraib at one time, in twelve-by-twelve-foot cells that were little more than human holding pits.

In the looting that followed the regime's collapse, last April, the huge prison complex, by then deserted, was stripped of everything that could be removed, including doors, windows, and bricks. The coalition authorities had the floors tiled, cells cleaned and repaired, and toilets, showers, and a new medical center added. Abu Ghraib was now a U.S. military prison. Most of the prisoners, however?-by the fall there were several thousand, including women and teen-agers?-were civilians, many of whom had been picked up in random military sweeps and at highway checkpoints. They fell into three loosely defined categories: common criminals; security detainees suspected of "crimes against the coalition"; and a small number of suspected "high-value" leaders of the insurgency against the coalition forces.

Last June, Janis Karpinski, an Army reserve brigadier general, was named commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade and put in charge of military prisons in Iraq. General Karpinski, the only female commander in the war zone, was an experienced operations and intelligence officer who had served with the Special Forces and in the 1991 Gulf War, but she had never run a prison system. Now she was in charge of three large jails, eight battalions, and thirty-four hundred Army reservists, most of whom, like her, had no training in handling prisoners.

General Karpinski, who had wanted to be a soldier since she was five, is a business consultant in civilian life, and was enthusiastic about her new job. In an interview last December with the St. Petersburg Times, she said that, for many of the Iraqi inmates at Abu Ghraib, "living conditions now are better in prison than at home. At one point we were concerned that they wouldn't want to leave."

A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the Army's prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was under way. A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not meant for public release, was completed in late February. Its conclusions about the institutional failures of the Army prison system were devastating. Specifically, Taguba found that between October and December of 2003 there were numerous instances of "sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses" at Abu Ghraib. This systematic and illegal abuse of detainees, Taguba reported, was perpetrated by soldiers of the 372nd Military Police Company, and also by members of the American intelligence community. (The 372nd was attached to the 320th M.P. Battalion, which reported to Karpinski's brigade headquarters.) Taguba's report listed some of the wrongdoing:

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

There was stunning evidence to support the allegations, Taguba added?-"detailed witness statements and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence." Photographs and videos taken by the soldiers as the abuses were happening were not included in his report, Taguba said, because of their "extremely sensitive nature."

The photographs?-several of which were broadcast on CBS's "60 Minutes 2" last week?-show leering G.I.s taunting naked Iraqi prisoners who are forced to assume humiliating poses. Six suspects?-Staff Sergeant Ivan L. Frederick II, known as Chip, who was the senior enlisted man; Specialist Charles A. Graner; Sergeant Javal Davis; Specialist Megan Ambuhl; Specialist Sabrina Harman; and Private Jeremy Sivits?-are now facing prosecution in Iraq, on charges that include conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty toward prisoners, maltreatment, assault, and indecent acts. A seventh suspect, Private Lynndie England, was reassigned to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, after becoming pregnant.

The photographs tell it all. In one, Private England, a cigarette dangling from her mouth, is giving a jaunty thumbs-up sign and pointing at the genitals of a young Iraqi, who is naked except for a sandbag over his head, as he masturbates. Three other hooded and naked Iraqi prisoners are shown, hands reflexively crossed over their genitals. A fifth prisoner has his hands at his sides. In another, England stands arm in arm with Specialist Graner; both are grinning and giving the thumbs-up behind a cluster of perhaps seven naked Iraqis, knees bent, piled clumsily on top of each other in a pyramid. There is another photograph of a cluster of naked prisoners, again piled in a pyramid. Near them stands Graner, smiling, his arms crossed; a woman soldier stands in front of him, bending over, and she, too, is smiling. Then, there is another cluster of hooded bodies, with a female soldier standing in front, taking photographs. Yet another photograph shows a kneeling, naked, unhooded male prisoner, head momentarily turned away from the camera, posed to make it appear that he is performing oral sex on another male prisoner, who is naked and hooded.

Such dehumanization is unacceptable in any culture, but it is especially so in the Arab world. Homosexual acts are against Islamic law and it is humiliating for men to be naked in front of other men, Bernard Haykel, a professor of Middle Eastern studies at New York University, explained. "Being put on top of each other and forced to masturbate, being naked in front of each other?-it's all a form of torture," Haykel said.

Two Iraqi faces that do appear in the photographs are those of dead men. There is the battered face of prisoner No. 153399, and the bloodied body of another prisoner, wrapped in cellophane and packed in ice. There is a photograph of an empty room, splattered with blood.

The 372nd's abuse of prisoners seemed almost routine?-a fact of Army life that the soldiers felt no need to hide. On April 9th, at an Article 32 hearing (the military equivalent of a grand jury) in the case against Sergeant Frederick, at Camp Victory, near Baghdad, one of the witnesses, Specialist Matthew Wisdom, an M.P., told the courtroom what happened when he and other soldiers delivered seven prisoners, hooded and bound, to the so-called "hard site" at Abu Ghraib?-seven tiers of cells where the inmates who were considered the most dangerous were housed. The men had been accused of starting a riot in another section of the prison. Wisdom said:

SFC Snider grabbed my prisoner and threw him into a pile. . . . I do not think it was right to put them in a pile. I saw SSG Frederic, SGT Davis and CPL Graner walking around the pile hitting the prisoners. I remember SSG Frederick hitting one prisoner in the side of its [sic] ribcage. The prisoner was no danger to SSG Frederick. . . . I left after that.

When he returned later, Wisdom testified:

I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open. I thought I should just get out of there. I didn't think it was right . . . I saw SSG Frederick walking towards me, and he said, "Look what these animals do when you leave them alone for two seconds." I heard PFC England shout out, "He's getting hard."

Wisdom testified that he told his superiors what had happened, and assumed that "the issue was taken care of." He said, "I just didn't want to be part of anything that looked criminal."

The abuses became public because of the outrage of Specialist Joseph M. Darby, an M.P. whose role emerged during the Article 32 hearing against Chip Frederick. A government witness, Special Agent Scott Bobeck, who is a member of the Army's Criminal Investigation Division, or C.I.D., told the court, according to an abridged transcript made available to me, "The investigation started after SPC Darby . . . got a CD from CPL Graner. . . . He came across pictures of naked detainees." Bobeck said that Darby had "initially put an anonymous letter under our door, then he later came forward and gave a sworn statement. He felt very bad about it and thought it was very wrong."

Questioned further, the Army investigator said that Frederick and his colleagues had not been given any "training guidelines" that he was aware of. The M.P.s in the 372nd had been assigned to routine traffic and police duties upon their arrival in Iraq, in the spring of 2003. In October of 2003, the 372nd was ordered to prison-guard duty at Abu Ghraib. Frederick, at thirty-seven, was far older than his colleagues, and was a natural leader; he had also worked for six years as a guard for the Virginia Department of Corrections. Bobeck explained:

What I got is that SSG Frederick and CPL Graner were road M.P.s and were put in charge because they were civilian prison guards and had knowledge of how things were supposed to be run.

Bobeck also testified that witnesses had said that Frederick, on one occasion, "had punched a detainee in the chest so hard that the detainee almost went into cardiac arrest."

At the Article 32 hearing, the Army informed Frederick and his attorneys, Captain Robert Shuck, an Army lawyer, and Gary Myers, a civilian, that two dozen witnesses they had sought, including General Karpinski and all of Frederick's co-defendants, would not appear. Some had been excused after exercising their Fifth Amendment right; others were deemed to be too far away from the courtroom. "The purpose of an Article 32 hearing is for us to engage witnesses and discover facts," Gary Myers told me. "We ended up with a c.i.d. agent and no alleged victims to examine." After the hearing, the presiding investigative officer ruled that there was sufficient evidence to convene a court-martial against Frederick.

Myers, who was one of the military defense attorneys in the My Lai prosecutions of the nineteen-seventies, told me that his client's defense will be that he was carrying out the orders of his superiors and, in particular, the directions of military intelligence. He said, "Do you really think a group of kids from rural Virginia decided to do this on their own? Decided that the best way to embarrass Arabs and make them talk was to have them walk around nude?"

In letters and e-mails to family members, Frederick repeatedly noted that the military-intelligence teams, which included C.I.A. officers and linguists and interrogation specialists from private defense contractors, were the dominant force inside Abu Ghraib. In a letter written in January, he said:

I questioned some of the things that I saw . . . such things as leaving inmates in their cell with no clothes or in female underpants, handcuffing them to the door of their cell?-and the answer I got was, "This is how military intelligence (MI) wants it done." . . . . MI has also instructed us to place a prisoner in an isolation cell with little or no clothes, no toilet or running water, no ventilation or window, for as much as three days.

The military-intelligence officers have "encouraged and told us, ?'Great job,' they were now getting positive results and information," Frederick wrote. "CID has been present when the military working dogs were used to intimidate prisoners at MI's request." At one point, Frederick told his family, he pulled aside his superior officer, Lieutenant Colonel Jerry Phillabaum, the commander of the 320th M.P. Battalion, and asked about the mistreatment of prisoners. "His reply was ?'Don't worry about it.'"

In November, Frederick wrote, an Iraqi prisoner under the control of what the Abu Ghraib guards called "O.G.A.," or other government agencies?-that is, the C.I.A. and its paramilitary employees?-was brought to his unit for questioning. "They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away. They put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately twenty-four hours in the shower. . . . The next day the medics came and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake IV in his arm and took him away." The dead Iraqi was never entered into the prison's inmate-control system, Frederick recounted, "and therefore never had a number."

Frederick's defense is, of course, highly self-serving. But the complaints in his letters and e-mails home were reinforced by two internal Army reports?-Taguba's and one by the Army's chief law-enforcement officer, Provost Marshal Donald Ryder, a major general.

Last fall, General Sanchez ordered Ryder to review the prison system in Iraq and recommend ways to improve it. Ryder's report, filed on November 5th, concluded that there were potential human-rights, training, and manpower issues, system-wide, that needed immediate attention. It also discussed serious concerns about the tension between the missions of the military police assigned to guard the prisoners and the intelligence teams who wanted to interrogate them. Army regulations limit intelligence activity by the M.P.s to passive collection. But something had gone wrong at Abu Ghraib.

There was evidence dating back to the Afghanistan war, the Ryder report said, that M.P.s had worked with intelligence operatives to "set favorable conditions for subsequent interviews"?-a euphemism for breaking the will of prisoners. "Such actions generally run counter to the smooth operation of a detention facility, attempting to maintain its population in a compliant and docile state." General Karpinski's brigade, Ryder reported, "has not been directed to change its facility procedures to set the conditions for MI interrogations, nor participate in those interrogations." Ryder called for the establishment of procedures to "define the role of military police soldiers . . .clearly separating the actions of the guards from those of the military intelligence personnel." The officers running the war in Iraq were put on notice.

Ryder undercut his warning, however, by concluding that the situation had not yet reached a crisis point. Though some procedures were flawed, he said, he found "no military police units purposely applying inappropriate confinement practices." His investigation was at best a failure and at worst a coverup.

Taguba, in his report, was polite but direct in refuting his fellow-general. "Unfortunately, many of the systemic problems that surfaced during [Ryder's] assessment are the very same issues that are the subject of this investigation," he wrote. "In fact, many of the abuses suffered by detainees occurred during, or near to, the time of that assessment." The report continued, "Contrary to the findings of MG Ryder's report, I find that personnel assigned to the 372nd MP Company, 800th MP Brigade were directed to change facility procedures to ?'set the conditions' for MI interrogations." Army intelligence officers, C.I.A. agents, and private contractors "actively requested that MP guards set physical and mental conditions for favorable interrogation of witnesses."

Taguba backed up his assertion by citing evidence from sworn statements to Army C.I.D. investigators. Specialist Sabrina Harman, one of the accused M.P.s, testified that it was her job to keep detainees awake, including one hooded prisoner who was placed on a box with wires attached to his fingers, toes, and penis. She stated, "MI wanted to get them to talk. It is Graner and Frederick's job to do things for MI and OGA to get these people to talk."

Another witness, Sergeant Javal Davis, who is also one of the accused, told C.I.D. investigators, "I witnessed prisoners in the MI hold section . . . being made to do various things that I would question morally. . . . We were told that they had different rules." Taguba wrote, "Davis also stated that he had heard MI insinuate to the guards to abuse the inmates. When asked what MI said he stated: ?'Loosen this guy up for us.'?'Make sure he has a bad night.'?'Make sure he gets the treatment.'" Military intelligence made these comments to Graner and Frederick, Davis said. "The MI staffs to my understanding have been giving Graner compliments . . . statements like, ?'Good job, they're breaking down real fast. They answer every question. They're giving out good information.'"

When asked why he did not inform his chain of command about the abuse, Sergeant Davis answered, "Because I assumed that if they were doing things out of the ordinary or outside the guidelines, someone would have said something. Also the wing"?-where the abuse took place?-"belongs to MI and it appeared MI personnel approved of the abuse."

Another witness, Specialist Jason Kennel, who was not accused of wrongdoing, said, "I saw them nude, but MI would tell us to take away their mattresses, sheets, and clothes." (It was his view, he added, that if M.I. wanted him to do this "they needed to give me paperwork.") Taguba also cited an interview with Adel L. Nakhla, a translator who was an employee of Titan, a civilian contractor. He told of one night when a "bunch of people from MI" watched as a group of handcuffed and shackled inmates were subjected to abuse by Graner and Frederick.

General Taguba saved his harshest words for the military-intelligence officers and private contractors. He recommended that Colonel Thomas Pappas, the commander of one of the M.I. brigades, be reprimanded and receive non-judicial punishment, and that Lieutenant Colonel Steven Jordan, the former director of the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center, be relieved of duty and reprimanded. He further urged that a civilian contractor, Steven Stephanowicz, of CACI International, be fired from his Army job, reprimanded, and denied his security clearances for lying to the investigating team and allowing or ordering military policemen "who were not trained in interrogation techniques to facilitate interrogations by ?'setting conditions' which were neither authorized" nor in accordance with Army regulations. "He clearly knew his instructions equated to physical abuse," Taguba wrote. He also recommended disciplinary action against a second CACI employee, John Israel. (A spokeswoman for CACI said that the company had "received no formal communication" from the Army about the matter.)

"I suspect," Taguba concluded, that Pappas, Jordan, Stephanowicz, and Israel "were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuse at Abu Ghraib," and strongly recommended immediate disciplinary action.

The problems inside the Army prison system in Iraq were not hidden from senior commanders. During Karpinski's seven-month tour of duty, Taguba noted, there were at least a dozen officially reported incidents involving escapes, attempted escapes, and other serious security issues that were investigated by officers of the 800th M.P. Brigade. Some of the incidents had led to the killing or wounding of inmates and M.P.s, and resulted in a series of "lessons learned" inquiries within the brigade. Karpinski invariably approved the reports and signed orders calling for changes in day-to-day procedures. But Taguba found that she did not follow up, doing nothing to insure that the orders were carried out. Had she done so, he added, "cases of abuse may have been prevented."

General Taguba further found that Abu Ghraib was filled beyond capacity, and that the M.P. guard force was significantly undermanned and short of resources. "This imbalance has contributed to the poor living conditions, escapes, and accountability lapses," he wrote. There were gross differences, Taguba said, between the actual number of prisoners on hand and the number officially recorded. A lack of proper screening also meant that many innocent Iraqis were wrongly being detained?-indefinitely, it seemed, in some cases. The Taguba study noted that more than sixty per cent of the civilian inmates at Abu Ghraib were deemed not to be a threat to society, which should have enabled them to be released. Karpinski's defense, Taguba said, was that her superior officers "routinely" rejected her recommendations regarding the release of such prisoners.

Karpinski was rarely seen at the prisons she was supposed to be running, Taguba wrote. He also found a wide range of administrative problems, including some that he considered "without precedent in my military career." The soldiers, he added, were "poorly prepared and untrained . . . prior to deployment, at the mobilization site, upon arrival in theater, and throughout the mission."

General Taguba spent more than four hours interviewing Karpinski, whom he described as extremely emotional: "What I found particularly disturbing in her testimony was her complete unwillingness to either understand or accept that many of the problems inherent in the 800th MP Brigade were caused or exacerbated by poor leadership and the refusal of her command to both establish and enforce basic standards and principles among its soldiers."

Taguba recommended that Karpinski and seven brigade military-police officers and enlisted men be relieved of command and formally reprimanded. No criminal proceedings were suggested for Karpinski; apparently, the loss of promotion and the indignity of a public rebuke were seen as enough punishment.

After the story broke on CBS last week, the Pentagon announced that Major General Geoffrey Miller, the new head of the Iraqi prison system, had arrived in Baghdad and was on the job. He had been the commander of the Guantánamo Bay detention center. General Sanchez also authorized an investigation into possible wrongdoing by military and civilian interrogators.

As the international furor grew, senior military officers, and President Bush, insisted that the actions of a few did not reflect the conduct of the military as a whole. Taguba's report, however, amounts to an unsparing study of collective wrongdoing and the failure of Army leadership at the highest levels. The picture he draws of Abu Ghraib is one in which Army regulations and the Geneva conventions were routinely violated, and in which much of the day-to-day management of the prisoners was abdicated to Army military-intelligence units and civilian contract employees. Interrogating prisoners and getting intelligence, including by intimidation and torture, was the priority.

The mistreatment at Abu Ghraib may have done little to further American intelligence, however. Willie J. Rowell, who served for thirty-six years as a C.I.D. agent, told me that the use of force or humiliation with prisoners is invariably counterproductive. "They'll tell you what you want to hear, truth or no truth," Rowell said. "?'You can flog me until I tell you what I know you want me to say.' You don't get righteous information."

Under the fourth Geneva convention, an occupying power can jail civilians who pose an "imperative" security threat, but it must establish a regular procedure for insuring that only civilians who remain a genuine security threat be kept imprisoned. Prisoners have the right to appeal any internment decision and have their cases reviewed. Human Rights Watch complained to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld that civilians in Iraq remained in custody month after month with no charges brought against them. Abu Ghraib had become, in effect, another Guantánamo.

As the photographs from Abu Ghraib make clear, these detentions have had enormous consequences: for the imprisoned civilian Iraqis, many of whom had nothing to do with the growing insurgency; for the integrity of the Army; and for the United States' reputation in the world.

Captain Robert Shuck, Frederick's military attorney, closed his defense at the Article 32 hearing last month by saying that the Army was "attempting to have these six soldiers atone for its sins." Similarly, Gary Myers, Frederick's civilian attorney, told me that he would argue at the court-martial that culpability in the case extended far beyond his client. "I'm going to drag every involved intelligence officer and civilian contractor I can find into court," he said. "Do you really believe the Army relieved a general officer because of six soldiers? Not a chance."
0 Replies
 
Deecups36
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 08:46 am
Price of admission to the big game.

Sounds to me like this military witch is one of those dames who wishes she were a man. If you get Deecup's drift.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 08:51 am
BBB
We are confronted with the great moral question during war, any war. Is torture justified when the information sought could save the lives of our side's troops and even civilian populations?

The hypocrisy in Iraq is that we despised Saddam because some of his infamny was that he tortured his own people.

Then there is the question of the type of torture. Using sophisticated drugs to obtain information is one thing. Physical torture is another.

For example, in Moslem countries, the worst thing that can be done to a woman is to rape her. That act results in a life-long torture of unacceptance by society.

When is torture acceptable? Is it ever?

BBB
0 Replies
 
Deecups36
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 08:57 am
When is torture acceptable? Is it ever?

A great question Bee. If the USA is going to engage in such rogue behavior then we have no business telling the world we're better, and we have no business as a signatory to the Geneva convention.

This is moral hypocrisy.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 09:16 am
I was left bloody & bruised. Now we've become the tortur
I was left bloody and bruised. Now we've become the torturers

In the 1991 Gulf war John Nichol, an RAF navigator, was shot down over Iraq, beaten up and paraded on TV. He gives his reaction to the images of allied brutality

Sunday May 2, 2004
The Observer

They are the images I thought I would never have to see again, sickening pictures of Iraqi prisoners, naked, tortured and humiliated. Surely liberation from Saddam Hussein's brutal, evil regime had seen an end to all of that? Yet here they are, photographs of American soldiers abusing prisoners in Iraq's notorious Abu Ghraib's dungeon and of British servicemen brutalising captives in Basra.

They have sent shock waves around the world and shivers down my spine. During the Gulf war in 1991, I was shot down over Iraq, taken prisoner, tortured, humiliated and paraded on TV in pictures that provided an enduring image of that war. Now, perhaps, these horrific new pictures from Iraq will be the lasting image of so-called liberation.

I was held at Abu Ghraib prison during my ordeal as a POW. It was a place of monstrous cruelty and unspeakable brutality; at times the screams of men and women echoed around the bare cell blocks and I would try to bury myself under my single, lice-infested blanket to block out the noise.

On one occasion etched in my memory the guards came crashing into my cell. Blows rained down on me from all sides and I fell to the floor under a merciless avalanche of abuse. I clearly remember watching the blood drip from my nose and form pools in the dust of the cell. At one point a guard pointed a gun at my head and told me he was going to kill me, he pulled the trigger but the hammer fell on an empty barrel; he had removed the bullets as part of his game.

That was all 13 years ago in a different Iraq, and to be honest I expected that sort of treatment, I knew how brutal the regime could be and that I could expect no mercy once in its grasp.

But it is all meant to be over now. Last year America, with Britain at its side, went to war to put an end to such brutality. The Iraqi people are meant to be liberated from a regime that ignores the rules of war, that knows no bounds in its cruel, degrading treatment of prisoners. Which is why these shocking, horrific images of soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners are almost too evil to comprehend. Naked prisoners are sexually abused while an American female soldier looks on in laughter and palpable pleasure. A British soldier urinates on a man who has been beaten and abused. These are the images I thought I would never see again. The criminal acts of a few bring shame and disgrace to all of the allied forces in Iraq. This is the sort of evil deed perpetrated on myself and the other allied POWs in 1991. We are meant to have rescued the Iraqis from that, we are meant to be above this degradation.

It may be that the abusers are simply a few rotten apples poisoning the whole military barrel and I have no doubt that the vast majority of British and American troops are doing their job as best they can in incredibly trying conditions. But the episode has done untold damage to the allied forces in Iraq and the backlash from the civilian population could be catastrophic.

The military battle to topple Saddam Hussein's evil regime and free the Iraqi people from oppression was won more than a year ago. But these sickening pictures show that there is still a long way to go to win the trust and respect of the Iraqi population.

-------------------------------------------------

· John Nichol was a POW during the 1991 Gulf war, and is now a writer and broadcaster. He is co-author, with Tony Rennell, of 'The Last Escape - The Untold Story of Allied POWs 1944-45', published by Penguin.
0 Replies
 
MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 09:19 am
problem is BBB that in this case I am completely sure that majority of prisoners were not even in position to know something that could save lives in matter you are mentioning (of course, I understand that you don't think torture of this kind can be approved) - they were simply torturing them for "fun".

And, as for your moral question - is torture ever acceptable? That's actually tough one. This kind is not, for sure. But some other kinds, maybe. If you are dealing with complete lunatic, someone extremely dangerous, then maybe it is...it's hard call anyway. But if, for example, you know that some terrorist group put wire bomb on one venue of Athens Olympic Games, and every single day there are tens of thousands of spectators on dozens and dozens of venues - and then you happen to capture terrorist that you have all reasons to believe that he knows location of bomb, well, in that case torturing is acceptable. Or, if not acceptable, it's less wrong choice.
But, as you mentioned, today there are sophisticated drugs that can make someone speak. So, there is no single case where torturing like one in this sad and shamefull example is acceptable.
Especially not in cases like this one.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 11:00 am
What I am hoping will be investigated, and in actuality will probably be sidestepped, is that it looks like this was something that was instigated as policy from the very top, not the actions of six lower enlisted pukes. I think this says something very frightening about our government! In addition, the "civillian contractors" came from a company associated with Halliburton. That is also disturbing. The amount of power this corporation has should chill teh souls of every American citizen.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 02:38 pm
Actually, the "responsibility" goes all the way to the top; president bush. But we all know by now that this president and administration doesn't admit wrong or making mistakes. Oh well, another day, another dead.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 05:37 pm
Abuse
U.S.: No Widespread Abuse in Iraq Prisons

WASHINGTON -

Quote:
Top U.S. military officer Gen. Richard Myers said Sunday there is no widespread pattern of abuse of Iraqi prisoners and that the actions of "just a handful" of U.S. troops at a Baghdad prison have unfairly tainted all American forces.


An internal Army report found that Iraqi detainees were subjected to "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses" at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, according to The New Yorker magazine, which said it obtained a copy of the report.

~snip~

The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said "categorically" that "there is no evidence of systematic abuse" in the U.S. detention operations in the region.


"We review all the interrogation methods. Torture is not one of the methods that we're allowed to use and that we use," Myers said. "I mean, it's just not permitted by international law, and we don't use it."
~snip~


much more: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=542&e=2&u=/ap/20040502...


US Forces restrict Red Cross access in Iraq

Quote:
This is from the International Red Cross's web site.
It appears US Forces have restricted their access to some of the prisons and camps for quite some time.
Based on its humanitarian mandate defined by the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions, the ICRC visits detainees - prisoners of war and civilians - in all major detention places under the authority of the Occupying Power. Family visits to detainees are only authorized in some prisons and camps, which means that for many detainees and their families Red Cross messages offer the only possibility to send a sign of life.



http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList322/02BD49A599DE9593C1 ...

* The US Army in Iraq had these photos for well over 8 months.
Why did they finally release them?
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 05:42 pm
Lies
Iraq: Torture not isolated -- independent investigations vital

Quote:
There is a real crisis of leadership in Iraq -- with double standards and double speak on human rights, Amnesty International said today.

"The latest evidence of torture and ill-treatment emerging from Abu Ghraib prison will exacerbate an already fragile situation. The prison was notorious under Saddam Hussein -- it should not be allowed to become so again. Iraq has lived under the shadow of torture for far too long. The Coalition leadership must send a clear signal that torture will not be tolerated under any circumstances and that the Iraqi people can now live free of such brutal and degrading practices," Amnesty International said.

"There must be a fully independent, impartial and public investigation into all allegations of torture. Nothing less will suffice. If Iraq is to have a sustainable and peaceful future, human rights must be a central component of the way forward. The message must be sent loud and clear that those who abuse human rights will be held accountable.

"Our extensive research in Iraq suggests that this is not an isolated incident. It is not enough for the USA to react only once images have hit the television screens".

Amnesty International has received frequent reports of torture or other ill-treatment by Coalition Forces during the past year. Detainees have reported being routinely subjected to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment during arrest and detention. Many have told Amnesty International that they were tortured and ill-treated by US and UK troops during interrogation. Methods often reported include prolonged sleep deprivation; beatings; prolonged restraint in painful positions, sometimes combined with exposure to loud music; prolonged hooding; and exposure to bright lights. Virtually none of the allegations of torture or ill-treatment has been adequately investigated by the authorities.

Amnesty International is calling for investigations into alleged abuses by Coalition Forces to be conducted by a body that is competent, impartial and independent, and seen to be so, and that any findings of such investigations be made public. In addition reparation, including compensation, must be paid to the victims or to their families.


http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde140172004
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 06:18 pm
CIA
CIA accused of link to Iraq prison torture

Quote:

A US Army Reserve general whose soldiers were photographed as they abused Iraqi prisoners said she knew nothing about the abuse until weeks after it occurred and that she was "sickened" by the pictures. Brigadier-General Janis Karpinski said she suspected the reservists were acting with the encouragement of military intelligence units that ran the special cell block used for interrogation and that CIA employees often joined in the interrogations.

General Karpinski's allegations are supported by a still-classified US Army report on prison conditions in Iraq documenting many of the worst abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison, west of Baghdad, including the sexual humiliation of prisoners.

The magazine The New Yorker says in its latest issue that the report, by Major-General Antonio Taguba, found that military police at the prison were urged by officers and CIA agents to "set physical and mental conditions for favourable interrogation of witnesses". According to the magazine, the army report offered accounts of gruesome abuse that included the sexual assault of an Iraqi detainee with a chemical light stick or broomstick.

In a phone interview in which she offered her first public comments about the episode, General Karpinski, who is still the commanding officer of the 800th Military Police Brigade, said the special high-security cell block at Abu Ghraib had been under the direct control of army intelligence officers, not the reservists under her command.


http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/02/1083436475631.html

* Who is the USA Commander In Chief?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 06:23 pm
May be fake pictures? If they are, somebody is a sicko.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 04:50 am
http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040502/cagle00.gif
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 05:21 am
Turantulas

Are you trying to say with that ad that the Arabs hated us before the abuse and that they hate us now and so therefore the abuse should be just dismissed or what?

I found an interesting article on yahoo this morning from a released prisoner. Some of what he says may or may not be true, but the interesting part is where he said at first he was glad that the Americans got rid of Saddam Hussien and viewed us as liberators, but now he says that we are worse than Saddam Hussien because at least all he done was beat and torure them physically while the Americans beat and humilate them (in his words) turn them into women.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040503/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prisoner_abuse&cid=540&ncid=716
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 05:23 am
The six US soldiers have been reprimanded over abuses against Iraqis held at Abu Ghraib jail, say US military officials today.

Another six soldiers at the jail are already under criminal investigation over alleged abuses against inmates.

I sincerely think - whatever they may get or if they get nothing at all - they did an immense damage to the credibility that the US want to be bring democracy and freedom.
At least, in most other countries people have a different understanding of it.

(I know, it just have been some dozens of soldiers; this can happen always and everywhere; it's exactly, what Arabs should get, the soldiers didn't know about the existence of the Geneva Convention; better this than living under Saddam; .....)
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 05:34 am
!
This abuse. humiliation, torture even murder is not so isolated and has been going on for quite a while.


I get this feeling that Tarantulas finds all of this amusing. Maybe he would be one of those that would be humiliating prisoners were he in one the US Prison gaurds in Iraq?
0 Replies
 
 

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